June 17, 2025

206 - Fire Engineering Infrastructural Projects with Mukesh Tomar

The player is loading ...

Today I'm taking you for a sightseeing trip to see what fire safety looks like beyond our usual office, residential buildings and car parks. Fire engineering takes on an entirely different dimension when applied to massive infrastructure projects where conventional building codes provide minimal guidance and engineers must forge their own path.

Dr. Mukesh Tomar from Jacobs takes us deep into the world of "non-real estate fire engineering" – the complex realm of cable tunnels stretching dozens of kilometres, nuclear facilities requiring marathon-like design processes, and mega-airports that function as entire cities. These projects demand fundamentally different approaches from traditional buildings, with engineers often working without clear objectives while balancing multiple stakeholders' requirements.

The challenges are as fascinating as they are daunting. How do you establish evacuation strategies for maintenance workers in remote utility tunnels? What happens when nuclear safety requirements from different global standards conflict with each other? And how do you integrate new fire safety systems with decades-old infrastructure during airport expansions? We explore these questions while uncovering the frustrations and rewards of engineering at this scale.

Perhaps most thought-provoking is how these specialised challenges are increasingly relevant to everyday buildings. As electric vehicle charging brings industrial-scale electrical systems into residential buildings, the line between conventional and infrastructure fire safety grows increasingly blurred. Without clear objectives and specialised expertise, are we adequately addressing these emerging risks?

Whether you're a seasoned infrastructure engineer or working primarily in traditional buildings, this episode offers valuable insights into the outer boundaries of fire safety engineering and the critical importance of establishing clear objectives before attempting solutions. Follow the Fire Science Show for more deep dives into the fascinating world where fire science meets real-world engineering challenges.

----
The Fire Science Show is produced by the Fire Science Media in collaboration with OFR Consultants. Thank you to the podcast sponsor for their continuous support towards our mission.

00:00 - Introduction to Infrastructure Fire Engineering

03:45 - Mukesh's Journey into Fire Engineering

08:46 - The Challenge of Unclear Objectives

17:49 - Long Cable Tunnels and Risk Assessment

27:12 - Nuclear Projects: A Different Engineering World

43:44 - Managing Mega Projects and Airport Expansions

54:42 - Multiple Fire Scenarios and Final Thoughts

59:38 - Episode Conclusion and Key Takeaways

WEBVTT

00:00:00.501 --> 00:00:02.322
Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.

00:00:02.322 --> 00:00:11.035
Today we're talking fire engineering, and fire engineering is a very specific set of projects, very interesting set of projects.

00:00:11.035 --> 00:00:21.675
Today we are talking broadly infrastructure, energy, really big projects which cannot be qualified as your everyday real estate.

00:00:21.675 --> 00:00:31.568
I thought that a lot of engineers listening to this podcast are obviously in the space for building stuff like residential buildings, office buildings, car parks, malls, etc.

00:00:31.568 --> 00:00:34.868
That's our everyday jobs and that pays the bills.

00:00:34.868 --> 00:00:46.902
But for safety, engineering is so much broader, so much broader, and there is a lot of interesting things happening in different sectors of built environment which I would love to bring to you as well.

00:00:47.323 --> 00:00:50.491
I'm personally a bit involved in non-real estate projects.

00:00:50.491 --> 00:00:56.264
We're doing a lot of tunnels, as you know, listening to this podcast, but the scope and the world is much bigger than that.

00:00:56.264 --> 00:01:35.030
Therefore, I've invited a guest, dr Mukesh Tomar, from Jacobs, and he actually has a pretty big experience working on different types of very large infrastructural and non-real estate projects across the world, many of them in Middle East, which brings a very interesting perspective into how fire safety engineering looks of interesting aspects, from being able to define the objectives of the engineering, working with the local governments or authorities, building up the knowledge base to start even with the project and figuring out a project specific considerations.

00:01:35.030 --> 00:01:39.001
We talk about very long cable tunnels in remote locations.

00:01:39.001 --> 00:01:41.125
We talk a bit on nuclear.

00:01:41.125 --> 00:01:42.927
We talk a bit airports.

00:01:42.927 --> 00:01:57.355
I think it will bring you a very interesting perspective and if you actually work on non-real estate infrastructural projects, this will bring you a lot of things that you can relate to in your everyday engineering job.

00:01:57.355 --> 00:02:04.319
So I hope we captured the spirit of a little bit different fire safety engineering in the non-real estate projects.

00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.329
So please join me and Lukasz in this episode.

00:02:07.439 --> 00:02:09.729
Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

00:02:09.729 --> 00:02:15.467
Welcome to the Fire Science Show.

00:02:15.467 --> 00:02:19.002
My name is Wojciech Wegrzyński and I will be your host.

00:02:19.002 --> 00:02:48.512
The FireSense Show is into its third year of continued support from its sponsor, ofar Consultants, who are an independent, multi-award-winning fire engineering consultancy with a reputation for delivering innovative, safety-driven solutions.

00:02:48.512 --> 00:03:02.262
As the UK leading independent fire risk consultancy, ofr's globally established team have developed a reputation for preeminent fire engineering expertise, with colleagues working across the world to help protect people, property and the planet.

00:03:02.262 --> 00:03:18.350
Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business by two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business continues to grow at a phenomenal rate, with offices across the country in eight locations, from Edinburgh to Bath, and plans for future expansions.

00:03:18.350 --> 00:03:26.870
If you're keen to find out more or join OFR Consultants during this exciting period of growth, visit their website at ofrconsultantscom.

00:03:26.870 --> 00:03:29.025
And now back to the episode.

00:03:29.025 --> 00:03:37.133
Hello everybody, I am joined today by Dr Mukesh Tomar, the head of fire engineering at Jacobs in London.

00:03:37.133 --> 00:03:39.167
Hey, mukesh, good to have you in the podcast.

00:03:39.860 --> 00:03:41.546
Lik ewise, Wojciech .

00:03:41.546 --> 00:03:49.675
I was thinking of making a session with you on this special podcast, so it's an opportunity for me, actually, and it's a pleasure to be here.

00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:51.143
Yeah, it's a pleasure for me.

00:03:51.143 --> 00:04:00.269
It's always fun to talk with fellow fire engineers about fire engineering, and today we're going to talk about fire.

00:04:00.269 --> 00:04:03.782
You called it non-real estate type of build environment.

00:04:03.782 --> 00:04:12.790
I usually call it infrastructure fire engineering, but that's the thing we're going to talk, so maybe can you define the scope where we will be in today's episode.

00:04:13.110 --> 00:04:13.673
Yeah, I'll tell you.

00:04:13.673 --> 00:04:20.730
That's why I say non-real estate fire engineering, because I see someone who is also a fire engineer, by the way.

00:04:20.730 --> 00:04:22.839
I can meet him in a pub or somewhere.

00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:24.908
And when he asks, can you fire engineer?

00:04:24.908 --> 00:04:29.807
I say yeah, I'm a engineer, by the way, like and meet him like in pub or somewhere.

00:04:29.807 --> 00:04:32.612
And when he asked me, like you fire engineers, yeah, I'm fine, like what you do, that's like I do the same stuff as you do.

00:04:32.612 --> 00:04:34.233
And then it's hard for me to explain them like why is so different like what I do from what they do?

00:04:34.233 --> 00:04:34.774
Like you know which?

00:04:34.774 --> 00:04:41.165
What the most of the fire engineers do is like a real estate project, which is office walls or the commercial, the buildings.

00:04:41.165 --> 00:04:43.588
But very few have, like what?

00:04:43.588 --> 00:04:46.192
Experience on the infrastructure wide.

00:04:46.192 --> 00:04:53.086
So when you say infrastructure is quite hard, some people only think like it could be, like you know, industrial projects, like factories and warehouses, those kind of things.

00:04:53.086 --> 00:04:55.072
So it's not really on infrastructure.

00:04:55.072 --> 00:04:57.925
So for me it's like real estate and non-real estate.

00:04:57.966 --> 00:05:13.560
It's the easy version of saying like what we generally count in infrastructure if I had to qualify myself into a group, I would say I am in that case 70% infrastructure fire engineer and 30% real estate fire engineer.

00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:22.002
So I also touched a bit of both worlds and I can relate to the, in one hand, this engineering looking the same.

00:05:22.002 --> 00:05:23.908
In one hand it's been completely back.

00:05:23.908 --> 00:05:27.269
First question to ask what's your background?

00:05:27.269 --> 00:05:35.793
How did you come to fire engineering and when did your career take a twist into the infrastructure projects?

00:05:35.793 --> 00:05:37.425
Did you work on real estate before?

00:05:38.208 --> 00:05:41.249
Oh yeah, my career is full of turns and twists, you know.

00:05:41.249 --> 00:05:50.891
So if I have to start back like, in 2007, I graduated with mechanical engineering and I went it for a master's in aerospace engineering quite interesting.

00:05:51.173 --> 00:06:06.014
and then I worked in winter as well for testing of like some buildings, aircraft, aerofoils, whatever you call it and after that I ended up in working for a medical firm which was to design for the medical equipment.

00:06:06.014 --> 00:06:18.779
Quite interesting, from mechanical to aerospace, to designing medical equipment but I had a passion of doing something in the field of either thermal or aerodynamics or those sort of things.

00:06:18.779 --> 00:06:36.670
So I was not really planning a career in the construction sector or the consulting sector, where I'm currently, but it just happened that I got an opportunity in 2011 and I joined the company in India back in those days and then we started with fire.

00:06:36.670 --> 00:06:45.781
So I was starting as a fire fighting engineer, fire protection engineer, generally make design for sprinklers and those active systems, generally speaking.

00:06:45.781 --> 00:06:50.298
So I worked on lots of these triples, by the way, and I've done lots of these triples.

00:06:50.298 --> 00:06:58.968
The problem I found and it's not a problem it just get boring after a certain point when you know there are standard that you can use and you can make your design.

00:06:58.968 --> 00:07:03.124
So the challenging part is like I would say like 10 20 person in those work.

00:07:03.124 --> 00:07:05.127
But but what I was always like?

00:07:05.127 --> 00:07:09.415
You know that I need to make a strategy so I can change the whole dynamics of the things.

00:07:09.415 --> 00:07:12.831
I can make things more you know, valuable or useful.

00:07:12.831 --> 00:07:21.870
Hence I was trying to shift it into the fire engineering, the actual fire engineering where we make fire strategies, and it took me like quite five, six, seven years.

00:07:21.870 --> 00:07:30.557
And then when I shifted to Dubai in 2015, and then I started slowly, slowly shifting into the fire engineering and since then it's been fun.

00:07:30.576 --> 00:07:49.833
So my first entry to the infrastructure project was in 2017, when I was working on Al Maktoum Airport in Dubai and I have to deal with a project where we had a number of road tunnels, tunnels, and I got surprised that how come, in 2016 and 17, we have such a limited data for road tunnel fire.

00:07:49.833 --> 00:07:55.317
And then I got excited as well, because when you don't have something, it's a possibility, right.

00:07:55.317 --> 00:07:57.848
I see it as a possibility that I can pursue it.

00:07:57.848 --> 00:08:19.399
I thought of doing a PhD in that topic, and then I also, like you know, started reading the codes and practices by different people, like what AECOM does, what Atkinson, what Tha does, what everyone else does, just to compare, and to my surprise, they all were slightly different than each other, and so does the codes of the various countries.

00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:32.056
So it is like I'm not able to understand how can a code or standard in UK, europe, asia or USA can be completely different than each other while they're solving the same problem.

00:08:32.056 --> 00:08:34.307
I mean, you know, I'm still not 100% sure.

00:08:34.307 --> 00:08:35.289
How does it work?

00:08:35.289 --> 00:08:48.346
So when I work on this project like one is in India, one is in Dubai or in Saudi and one is in UK, one is in Europe and they all follow a different code and the approach is completely different the objectives are completely different.

00:08:48.346 --> 00:08:52.791
Sometime, or most of the time, half the time, the objectives are not very clear.

00:08:53.399 --> 00:09:06.789
I have this from the opposite side, so I'm mostly dealing with projects in Poland, but we have engineering offices from all around the world trying to do projects in here and I am the one explaining that it's different in here.

00:09:06.789 --> 00:09:11.850
Like we do it differently and people are always surprised like why is it different?

00:09:11.850 --> 00:09:19.350
Would you say that those infrastructure larger projects allowed you to do more fire engineering?

00:09:19.350 --> 00:09:27.567
Because in the world of residential commercial buildings I feel everything's prescribed In Poland you would only engineer smoke control.

00:09:27.567 --> 00:09:29.304
Really, you absolutely don't.

00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:41.462
I mean, if you look at the very old standard, like you know, if you talk about, for example, nfpas are like NFPA 101 or 5000, which are mainly for life safety code, the similar codes of UK or Europe or the Middle East.

00:09:41.462 --> 00:09:42.144
They are very similar.

00:09:42.144 --> 00:09:43.846
Similar codes of UK or Europe or the Middle East.

00:09:43.846 --> 00:09:44.967
They are very similar.

00:09:44.967 --> 00:09:56.707
They're written in a way that you can adopt them in a building and you can make your design according to them and most cases they are purely prescriptive work, exceptionally in few projects where you have challenge.

00:09:56.727 --> 00:10:09.793
You do a little bit of performance-based and which is most limited to work you on a few of the CFD cases and then you dissolve it and then you show asset-to-asset and some smoke layer and that's it, that's all.

00:10:09.793 --> 00:10:22.308
But here in infrastructure it's quite opposite to the real estate projects or those projects it can be as hard as 80%, 90% performance-based and only factor-in-person prescriptive-based.

00:10:22.308 --> 00:10:27.065
There are a few examples that they are fully performance based, 100% performance based.

00:10:27.065 --> 00:10:46.202
So when you start you really don't know what you need to achieve and so you know it gets very, very interesting when you work on those projects that there are no clear objective what you want to achieve, and then you get challenged under like whatever you say, because you don't have a benchmark to set like you know that we need to start here.

00:10:46.222 --> 00:10:51.269
Why would you say you don't have an objective to achieve, so there's no authority that has an objective.

00:10:51.269 --> 00:10:56.471
The authority doesn't know what the objective should be, or they choose inappropriate objectives.

00:10:56.893 --> 00:11:02.966
Okay, so since you touched on the authority, I'll call myself lucky on a project where I can interact with authority.

00:11:02.966 --> 00:11:05.808
So it varies from region to region.

00:11:05.808 --> 00:11:09.230
It is usually in certain region, I'll not name which reasons.

00:11:09.230 --> 00:11:11.740
You can only contact authority.

00:11:11.740 --> 00:11:13.427
Once you finish your project.

00:11:13.427 --> 00:11:17.461
You submit it for the final or, like issue, for construction level of design.

00:11:17.461 --> 00:11:24.866
So when it goes to construction then you have the first opportunity to interact with the authorities, and that's too late for such projects.

00:11:25.368 --> 00:11:26.169
But there is a client.

00:11:26.169 --> 00:11:27.533
The client must know an objective.

00:11:27.533 --> 00:11:28.033
Okay.

00:11:33.379 --> 00:11:40.788
That's really a very high ambition to have a client which knows the real object I mean with no respect to any client so they do know some of the objective, but when it comes to fire, things become critical.

00:11:40.788 --> 00:11:53.982
So if I have to take an example, let's consider an example of 60 or 50 kilometer long of cable tunnels in a place like there's no city or nothing in there, like there's no fire service at all.

00:11:53.982 --> 00:11:59.241
So what do you expect the client to have as a requirement of object from the fire engineering?

00:11:59.241 --> 00:12:01.749
They don't really sometimes know, like, what it means to them.

00:12:01.749 --> 00:12:05.293
So we have to tell them and the things become challenging in such a long and complex project what it means to them.

00:12:05.293 --> 00:12:09.206
So we have to tell them and the and the things become challenging in such a long and complex project when you need to work.

00:12:09.206 --> 00:12:12.660
So as a fire engineer, we work against few objects.

00:12:12.660 --> 00:12:21.205
Like we need to make sure that the people who are there either occupying the building or the facility or working for maintenance, are safer.

00:12:21.205 --> 00:12:25.231
They can they can go out safely if there's any incident.

00:12:25.231 --> 00:12:39.884
Second, there should be an inherent and if not exclusively, provision to have the continuity of that business, so someone should not lose all of the investment or the or the work that they have done, and then there should be a resilience as well.

00:12:39.884 --> 00:12:43.740
So property protection, business continuity, life safety, all of them right.

00:12:44.263 --> 00:12:51.379
So if you look at the code for the standards of any country, they are mainly code for the standard for the building.

00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:53.566
So we have a building regulation in uk.

00:12:53.566 --> 00:13:03.582
There is similar building course or building fire course in in various countries in middle east, but they cover building, interestingly, right, and we're talking about infrastructure.

00:13:03.582 --> 00:13:05.768
So sometimes they have one liner.

00:13:05.768 --> 00:13:06.548
There is.

00:13:06.548 --> 00:13:20.528
There are few countries they have tried to put a table in their standard or their building aggregation codes, one table to cover the all the infrastructure project, saying like, okay, if you have a cable tunnel, do this, just one line.

00:13:20.948 --> 00:13:27.062
That's just not the way to to deal with making your objective for such a infrastructure heavy project.

00:13:27.062 --> 00:13:37.921
So when I'm saying like there's no objective or there's no clear objective, what I mean is like, because I don't have a building code saying to me, how do I make sure the people are safe?

00:13:37.921 --> 00:13:43.559
Everything I propose is just going to be my own interpretation of how do I do for engineering.

00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.908
Right, so I could do, you could do differently.

00:13:45.908 --> 00:13:49.450
And even in my team some people can do it totally differently than me.

00:13:49.450 --> 00:13:53.311
Then it becomes a hard sell to the authorities, to the client.

00:13:53.311 --> 00:13:55.548
Whatever we are saying makes sense.

00:13:55.548 --> 00:13:59.470
So that's why I say there is no clear, defined objective.

00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:03.071
It varies quite significantly in this project sometimes.

00:14:03.700 --> 00:14:08.308
I like the example that you brought, the 60 kilometer long cable tunnel.

00:14:08.308 --> 00:14:16.529
That's such an abstract concept to me that I would love to put it forward if you're willing to talk about examples like that.

00:14:16.529 --> 00:14:19.971
So okay, obviously let's agree.

00:14:19.971 --> 00:14:24.913
Life safety, continuity, property resilience that's, let's say, groups of objectives that we can narrow.

00:14:24.913 --> 00:14:27.011
Life safety continuity, property resilience that's, let's say, groups of objectives that we can narrow.

00:14:27.011 --> 00:14:33.283
Life safety I probably limited, because it's going to be manned only where the cable connects.

00:14:33.283 --> 00:14:35.460
There's not going to be people in the cable.

00:14:36.168 --> 00:14:39.881
So let's say, life safety is like default, probably okay.

00:14:39.881 --> 00:14:43.659
Now how do you care for other?

00:14:43.659 --> 00:14:56.409
Because like it feels like kind of binary, like Another objective you could put in is I do not have a fire in the tunnel, which is realistically very difficult to achieve with 100%.

00:14:56.409 --> 00:14:58.611
So where do you put those boundaries?

00:14:58.611 --> 00:15:06.258
How much safety for continuity, for productivity protection would you like to put in and how the hell you quantify that?

00:15:06.258 --> 00:15:07.765
That's a very interesting question.

00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:17.130
So there are a few clans that try to go to that level of resilience that what if we just don't allow fire to happen or not to grow?

00:15:17.130 --> 00:15:23.779
So we're talking about like an environment where the either oxygen is too low or something similar, something similar.

00:15:23.779 --> 00:15:37.890
We have not explored those for the cable tunnels for various reasons, but we did explore them for some warehouses and data center and some nuclear plants, and the outcome was that is a very complex solution.

00:15:37.890 --> 00:15:44.910
It looks very simple on paper, very simple, that you can reduce the oxygen and you can do some other methods and then the fire will never happen.

00:15:44.910 --> 00:15:53.888
But it's like your insurance policy you have one page of the cover and you have 100 pages of your terms and conditions.

00:15:53.888 --> 00:15:54.408
You know what I mean.

00:15:54.408 --> 00:15:56.234
Yeah, it's in some way it's like that.

00:15:56.234 --> 00:15:59.745
So when you read the fine prints you will know what I mean.

00:15:59.745 --> 00:16:06.850
So when you, when you're trying to go with that approach that, can we do it completely foolproof that fire will never happen?

00:16:06.850 --> 00:16:07.652
The answer is no.

00:16:07.652 --> 00:16:15.105
That's not going to be achievable, unless someone just makes it on paper, which is of course you have to accept, but then it won't happen.

00:16:15.105 --> 00:16:18.429
So now let's go down to the objectives Life safety.

00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:27.428
It looks very simple that life safety shouldn't be an issue but believe me, there are people when they go in work there, because of their arrangement it depends.

00:16:27.509 --> 00:16:37.344
If there's a partition between the large utility, tunnels could be like you know, someone can separate the dry utility from wet, or it can be some of the separations.

00:16:37.344 --> 00:16:45.350
When you have separation and it's a far separation, it's slightly easier so you can transfer people to other side and then they can slowly, slowly go outside.

00:16:45.350 --> 00:17:03.705
But when it's just a unique direction, just one way traffic tunnel or like one way, simply one tube, it becomes so hard because you don't have a huge clear height or the area to contain the smoke, so any fire, you are just chasing your life as a staff or whoever you are.

00:17:03.705 --> 00:17:14.416
And with such a long tunnel you aren't expecting exits or the cat ladders or the access hatches at a few meters.

00:17:14.416 --> 00:17:18.991
We're talking at least a few hundred meters, if not a few kilometers.

00:17:18.991 --> 00:17:25.661
So in one of the examples we had a two kilometer example.

00:17:25.661 --> 00:17:26.182
We had a two kilometer.

00:17:26.182 --> 00:17:32.910
So you can imagine like if you, if you are very good runner and when you are very good senses of sensing there's something wrong and you make it right point you make your exit and then you may be able to reach there.

00:17:33.352 --> 00:17:43.922
All you justify by a cfd simulation, by your fire hazard analysis, that what could burn, how it can burn and what level of smoke and soot and everything else can give.

00:17:43.922 --> 00:17:46.847
So you're running basically against a cfd scenario.

00:17:46.847 --> 00:17:51.642
I just hope like it's going to be that scenario in the real life if it has to happen.

00:17:51.642 --> 00:17:54.669
So those are the challenges for life safety as well.

00:17:55.431 --> 00:18:10.134
And now if you talk about property protection, unfortunately unless you provide an active fire suppression and that's also some people will debate or is concerned because of having active separation in such facilities, it's not a good idea.

00:18:10.134 --> 00:18:13.688
But I'm pretty open, I do accept those solutions.

00:18:13.688 --> 00:18:18.365
So if you have to put one, you increase your chance of property protection and business continuity.

00:18:18.365 --> 00:18:24.480
I'm not saying that you will just eliminate, that will never happen but you reduce your, your loss in a way.

00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:33.144
So those are the general things, but there are a number of five engineering options by which you can enhance your property production and business content.

00:18:33.144 --> 00:18:39.928
You can provide or propose some horizontal compartmentation, which we are doing currently in one of the utility tunnels.

00:18:39.928 --> 00:18:43.309
We are putting compartmentation at an interval.

00:18:44.250 --> 00:18:50.113
I'm asking that because some decision can be taken in an abstract space, Like you can say.

00:18:50.113 --> 00:18:52.314
It's better to compartmentalize this.

00:18:52.314 --> 00:18:57.296
And then the question is like okay, so every 100 meters, every 200 meters.

00:18:57.375 --> 00:18:58.176
Exactly.

00:18:59.477 --> 00:19:02.618
In a general, broad sense, it's easy to come with a solution.

00:19:02.618 --> 00:19:11.362
It's just very hard to narrow it in the technical details that you know that it's feasible, that it's economically viable and it's going to like provide you.

00:19:11.362 --> 00:19:13.428
So I'll give you an example from my world.

00:19:13.428 --> 00:19:16.343
So we were designing a road tunnel it's not a fire example.

00:19:16.343 --> 00:19:36.113
So we were designing a road tunnel and the road tunnel had a massive ventilation station which is quite near a residential district, and the occupants of the district were very annoyed with the fact that there's a big ventilation building nearby, as they envisioned that they're going to be dying out of smoke very soon.

00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:39.028
As if the road was not in tunnel, they would not.

00:19:39.028 --> 00:19:43.104
Of course, the cars would then magically not emit any smoke.

00:19:43.104 --> 00:19:45.165
Cars would then magically not emit any smoke.

00:19:45.165 --> 00:19:50.590
But anyway, the public was very hard on the investor.

00:19:50.590 --> 00:19:53.513
You need to install filters.

00:19:53.513 --> 00:19:58.922
That was the message of the public, and we get that message Like what do we do with it?

00:19:58.942 --> 00:20:00.746
And I'm like to design filters.

00:20:00.746 --> 00:20:02.912
I need to know two things.

00:20:02.912 --> 00:20:16.781
One is what's my initial concentration, so how much the cars can emit, which I can calculate which, by the way, I did, and it's not very much, but still and two, what is my target?

00:20:16.781 --> 00:20:22.861
Like they want filters, tell me what level of air filtration do you expect me to have?

00:20:22.861 --> 00:20:30.611
Only then I can narrow down a technical outline of a solution that will take the concentration from point A to point B.

00:20:30.611 --> 00:20:38.509
And at this moment the discussions pretty much never followed because it was impossible to one narrow down the initial conditions.

00:20:38.509 --> 00:20:43.646
It was already hard, and the more we narrowed them down, the more it looked like we don't need filters.

00:20:43.646 --> 00:20:49.250
And the second thing was they were just unable to provide me the target.

00:20:49.509 --> 00:20:52.843
Exactly that's the problem In the large infrastructure project.

00:20:52.843 --> 00:20:59.934
If you have your objectives clearly defined, what you need to achieve, you have already finished half of the job, believe me.

00:20:59.934 --> 00:21:04.868
Because they are not clearly defined, they are sometimes just not available.

00:21:04.868 --> 00:21:05.483
Sometimes it's worse.

00:21:05.483 --> 00:21:06.270
They are sometimes just not available.

00:21:06.270 --> 00:21:07.259
Sometimes it's worse, they are contradictory.

00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:12.807
They've been recommended in multiple sorts of documents and they're contradicting with each other.

00:21:12.807 --> 00:21:14.385
So that's another thing.

00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:18.029
And for resilience or property.

00:21:18.029 --> 00:21:20.868
How do you quantify the targets?

00:21:21.321 --> 00:21:23.730
At the end of the day, we are a human being.

00:21:23.730 --> 00:21:34.500
We try to do as much as possible to keep the risk as low as as possible and but at the same time, we are also consultant, we have a contractual obligation.

00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:41.982
I mean, we should not be, we should not driving our thoughts by how we feel, but what is the right way of doing?

00:21:41.982 --> 00:21:45.711
If there's a way exist, so also in this project.

00:21:45.711 --> 00:21:49.165
I'll give you a nice example, without quoting the trend and the project.

00:21:49.165 --> 00:22:05.573
So we did a projects in middle east and we made the life safety requirement and if there are any property protection or resilience requirement, the client should tell us right, because you are, you are the operator, owner of the facility.

00:22:05.573 --> 00:22:09.570
You must know what you need to protect and what is your resilience.

00:22:09.570 --> 00:22:19.607
If you tell me that I'm supplying from this cable tunnel to a facility which should never shut down and this is the only source of supply, then I know that what you're talking about.

00:22:19.607 --> 00:22:22.067
But these details are never available.

00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:23.665
How would you define resilience?

00:22:23.665 --> 00:22:26.068
Perhaps we should define the term for the general audience.

00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:26.980
Okay.

00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:33.406
So resilience is like, in a very simple layman's language, not having a single point of failure.

00:22:33.406 --> 00:22:49.667
Resilience to me I mean you can grow in a more complex manner, but in simple words, like if you take an example of that heat throw shutdown for 24 hours from a substation fire probably it was a case of resilience was not afforded to the project In some way.

00:22:49.667 --> 00:22:55.454
I'm not saying that it was not there, but it was not completely afforded to the project in that case.

00:22:55.454 --> 00:23:16.070
So if you have a single point of failure to a facility or to a function which is absolutely critical for an important reason, like it could be a connectivity to a country, it could be a strategical project or location or tunnel, or it could be a power plant which you cannot afford to shut down for even for a few hours.

00:23:16.070 --> 00:23:23.988
So in that sense, you need to tell us that, guys, we have this tunnel supplying to this critical facility and this northern end sea.

00:23:23.988 --> 00:23:29.512
If that's the case, we have a number of other ways to incorporate that resilience in the same project.

00:23:29.512 --> 00:23:35.112
But of course it will everything, every request will add up some sort of cost, right?

00:23:35.112 --> 00:23:42.134
So while every client is pushing towards a cost-effective solution which is fair and fine in all respect.

00:23:42.134 --> 00:23:46.826
But then if there's no clearly defined objective, we just can go a little far.

00:23:46.826 --> 00:23:56.067
So we ask them a number of times to the particular client that if you have any requirement for resilience of business, sometimes it comes from insurance.

00:23:56.067 --> 00:23:59.369
So if there's an insurance requirement, do let us know.

00:23:59.369 --> 00:24:00.625
But we just navigate it.

00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:20.704
And then, interestingly enough, we had a third representative who raised this question at the very last hour of the project, that we are fully okay with this project, that you meet the life safety, but have you made your client aware that there is a limited property protection or the business continuity or resilience offered by this design?

00:24:20.704 --> 00:24:25.452
I wow, someone is talking my language, so I got happy.

00:24:25.452 --> 00:24:31.951
But the problem is we welcome all sorts of inputs to the project, but it has to be the right time.

00:24:31.951 --> 00:24:33.622
And how would the client see that?

00:24:33.622 --> 00:24:42.872
So, while it was a very good point to be made as an authority representative, but as a client, it just became like it seems like someone has missed the spot completely.

00:24:43.401 --> 00:24:47.571
And then we have to go in depth and telling them that how it works.

00:24:47.571 --> 00:24:58.769
And then we explain no, we said this, we asked this, we never get the feedback and we assume this, this, this, this, and therefore we end up in this design.

00:24:58.769 --> 00:25:02.202
Even now, if you tell us, like what is the objective, we're happy to incorporate.

00:25:02.202 --> 00:25:08.873
But the answer was okay, we'll come back to you and like incorporate, but the answer was okay, we'll come back to you and like, as you said, they will never end up in.

00:25:08.873 --> 00:25:15.049
Like you're not coming up with a clearly, uh defined object at what they need to achieve, because there isn't one.

00:25:15.049 --> 00:25:17.964
They have to work with different stakeholder of that project.

00:25:17.964 --> 00:25:20.672
It's a complex process, it's very complex it's not easy.

00:25:21.121 --> 00:25:26.874
That's why I like tunnels and risk, because I can set a quantifiable risk target to my tunnel.

00:25:26.874 --> 00:25:31.911
I can say I want the risk to be one, two minus four and I'm happy with that design.

00:25:31.911 --> 00:25:32.952
We're done.

00:25:32.952 --> 00:25:43.762
I've asked for clarification on resilience because a lot of people understand the term differently and I also understand it a little different than you and I also understand it a little different than you.

00:25:43.762 --> 00:25:50.388
So for me resilience usually was the ability to recover after the fire.

00:25:50.388 --> 00:25:54.854
So how quickly, how well and how completely I can.

00:25:54.973 --> 00:25:58.596
But I'm happy to embrace your definition of not having a single point failure.

00:25:58.596 --> 00:26:05.571
I mean, it's a very broad term and I don't think our definitions would exclude each other because they lead to very similar outcomes.

00:26:05.571 --> 00:26:09.221
Yeah, I'm happy to embrace your term.

00:26:09.221 --> 00:26:12.348
Okay, but you also work in industries like nuclear.

00:26:12.348 --> 00:26:18.103
Yeah, it's for me hard to imagine nuclear industry would not have objectives figured out.

00:26:18.103 --> 00:26:24.623
So perhaps it's a different world in there where maybe there's too many objectives or too many regulators.

00:26:24.623 --> 00:26:29.321
Poland, my country, is only entering the space of nuclear.

00:26:29.321 --> 00:26:32.316
So we're designing, poland is designing, not me.

00:26:32.316 --> 00:26:36.624
Maybe one day I would be like, if someone's listening, I'm open.

00:26:36.624 --> 00:26:48.970
But Poland is designing its first large nuclear power plant and even though we've just started, for years we already are into accreditation schemes.

00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:55.281
There's like national nuclear regulatory body that we have to get accreditation to even start talking about it.

00:26:55.281 --> 00:27:02.637
There's like layers and layers and layers of formalities, and there's not even drawing yet, you know.

00:27:02.637 --> 00:27:04.356
So I feel it's completely up.

00:27:04.356 --> 00:27:06.316
Tell me more about those types of projects.

00:27:07.038 --> 00:27:07.338
All right.

00:27:07.338 --> 00:27:11.060
So when I started, I compared the real estate versus non-real estate.

00:27:11.060 --> 00:27:20.665
So if I have to put things in perspective, the real estate was, let's say, it's one kilometer run and then we were doing like five to ten kilometers on the infrastructure.

00:27:20.665 --> 00:27:23.316
This is a pure marathon, nuclear, it's a pure marathon.

00:27:23.316 --> 00:27:28.193
Okay, not half marathon, not half marathon.

00:27:28.233 --> 00:27:29.238
It's a full marathon.

00:27:29.238 --> 00:27:31.778
I mean it still could be Ironman or something.

00:27:32.931 --> 00:27:34.718
I'll tell you a few of my experience.

00:27:34.718 --> 00:27:42.980
By the way, I'm not really an expert on the nuclear fire safety by any means, but I have worked on one of the projects and been involved in a few of the things.

00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:46.618
So I can say my experience, and this is only exclusive to my experience.

00:27:46.618 --> 00:27:47.981
So here it goes.

00:27:47.981 --> 00:27:50.657
Nuclear are very different in nature.

00:27:50.657 --> 00:27:55.241
So, as I said, in the real estate we have prescriptive codes and standards telling you what to do.

00:27:55.241 --> 00:27:59.454
In the infrastructure you have prescriptive to some level.

00:27:59.454 --> 00:28:00.740
Then you have performance-based things.

00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:04.232
That is quite established in the world that we live in currently.

00:28:04.232 --> 00:28:08.392
I mean, at least we know where to go, what to do, how to find and what to achieve.

00:28:08.392 --> 00:28:11.838
At the end of the day, nuclear is a very different one.

00:28:11.838 --> 00:28:17.693
So they need to first comply with the regulatory body or the requirements.

00:28:17.693 --> 00:28:28.165
So let's say an example if I'm building a nuclear plant in the UK, for example, at some point it's a building, right, it's a building, be it underground or above ground or whatever.

00:28:28.165 --> 00:28:38.636
In a broad term, it's a building that first needs to comply with the building regulations, which is, you can choose whichever route you want, adb or BS9999, same will be applicable to Poland.

00:28:38.636 --> 00:28:43.142
So the building should comply with the minimum requirement of the building regulation of that country.

00:28:43.142 --> 00:28:44.935
That is the first starting point.

00:28:44.935 --> 00:29:02.855
Now comes the interesting fact that there are a number of practices around the globe, and when I say globe, that goes from US to Europe, to UK, to the Russia as well and to the Japan as well.

00:29:02.855 --> 00:29:12.520
So it was my first project when I was reading the requirement and the practices around the globe on one project and I was so much excited to know what they do.

00:29:12.520 --> 00:29:26.882
But the problem is the excitement soon become a bit of like confusion, because it's good to know what so many people do, but then when it comes to what we need to do, we need to get a clear way of what are we going to do in this case.

00:29:26.882 --> 00:29:31.061
So in that project I read the requirement or the practice.

00:29:31.061 --> 00:29:34.520
It's not called requirement but we just call it practices.

00:29:34.520 --> 00:29:39.221
So we have a process called reasonable good practices, so RGB.

00:29:39.470 --> 00:29:44.574
So if you have, since you are in academia, you know like whenever you do a research you do a literature review.

00:29:44.574 --> 00:29:45.979
This is exactly the same.

00:29:45.979 --> 00:29:51.696
You do a literature review, like what others have been doing so far, where the industry is, and then you get the understanding.

00:29:51.696 --> 00:29:54.213
That is the first and very good basic step.

00:29:54.213 --> 00:29:56.338
But the problem is after that.

00:29:56.338 --> 00:30:10.049
If I say, for example, no US have done in a way and France has done in a completely different way, and Japan is another third different way, and Korea in fourth and the UK is fifth, what am I going to do in Poland?

00:30:10.049 --> 00:30:15.205
Am I going to try one of them or am I going to have a new, sixth way?

00:30:15.867 --> 00:30:28.721
That is the problem and this is why these countries, when they plan to build a number of nuclear schemes because it's a very important piece of infrastructure, it is an infrastructure of national importance, if you know what I mean.

00:30:28.721 --> 00:30:38.259
So they must have very clear guidelines what the objectives are, and then we fire engineers know how to achieve those objectives.

00:30:38.259 --> 00:30:47.219
So we had some requirements from insurance bodies, in addition to the regional and the regular practices around the world.

00:30:47.219 --> 00:30:51.474
So when we combined them all, we got a blurred picture.

00:30:51.474 --> 00:30:53.280
You know what I mean A blurred picture.

00:30:53.280 --> 00:30:56.630
There's so many information, but what are the objectives?

00:30:56.871 --> 00:31:03.198
Now the main issue is that was only for information to understand how things work in nuclear.

00:31:03.198 --> 00:31:05.349
So now you know the practices around the world.

00:31:05.349 --> 00:31:12.789
Now, if you go in your building or plant, floor by floor, room by room, and check what is in that room.

00:31:12.789 --> 00:31:26.756
So if that room has batteries, just for as an example, what type of batteries, how they are stacked, how close they are to wall, how many cables are going with them, what are the cable sizes, what are the armor, what are the supply of voltage?

00:31:26.756 --> 00:31:32.698
I mean you have to go check every single thing that you can imagine or not imagine.

00:31:33.398 --> 00:31:34.818
I see a massive trap in this.

00:31:34.818 --> 00:31:36.740
Yeah, you know what's the trap?

00:31:36.740 --> 00:31:39.060
It's that an expectation.

00:31:39.060 --> 00:31:45.403
I'm not saying yours, but in general an expectation is that someone comes up with a set of requirements.

00:31:45.403 --> 00:31:50.326
Now I would assume that for a project like a nuclear, it must be the government.

00:31:50.326 --> 00:31:53.626
It's not like a private guy building his own nuclear power plant so.

00:31:54.067 --> 00:31:59.633
I assume the investor is the country, the project is national, so there must be a governmental agency for that.

00:31:59.633 --> 00:32:04.083
Now, not offending anyone, but it's very unlikely.

00:32:04.083 --> 00:32:09.082
They have competency in that because this is the first time a nuclear power plant is being built in my country.

00:32:09.082 --> 00:32:23.765
So I assume, even though there may be people who have some experience from abroad and that would be amazing, but on a larger scale, the institution does not have an institutional experience in that.

00:32:23.765 --> 00:32:29.051
If you know what I mean, Now you go into this reasonably good practice analysis.

00:32:29.051 --> 00:32:41.317
People, because they are non-confident with the design, because they're doing it for the first time, may try to cherry-pick.

00:32:41.317 --> 00:32:46.759
You know the best safety parts of all different codes.

00:32:47.159 --> 00:32:56.323
And you end up with a Frankenstein monster of safety layers and safety margins and your project is just ridiculously over-designed.

00:32:56.323 --> 00:33:00.984
Or perhaps you choose wrong some things that are incompatible, right.

00:33:01.486 --> 00:33:02.945
So I'll tell you my experience.

00:33:02.945 --> 00:33:14.876
So exactly this is what happens really that you go and cherry-pick things and at the same time we have in our back of mind that we have to always comply with the building regulation of the local authority.

00:33:14.876 --> 00:33:16.240
So that is there.

00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.311
But what is keep moving is what we need to do in general.

00:33:20.311 --> 00:33:27.862
So when we do the cherry picking I hate this word, cherry picking, but it just it does happen on the projects and I have to admit that it does happen.

00:33:27.862 --> 00:33:31.273
So when we do the cherry picking, we know what we are doing.

00:33:31.273 --> 00:33:35.811
But, as you can imagine, the nuclear projects are run by the process engineers.

00:33:35.811 --> 00:33:44.001
They are, like, quite expert in their own field or domain and they love to go in a very small detail of everything.

00:33:44.001 --> 00:33:55.240
So when I go and ask him that I need this battery room to be one hour or two hour fire rated from the surrounding, they don't buy this argument for just on an email or on my site.

00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:57.631
You have to build a case.

00:33:58.211 --> 00:33:58.792
Exactly.

00:33:58.792 --> 00:34:07.143
I have to make a proper document or report or safety case to justify that which is okay, but that's good If they're process engineers.

00:34:07.182 --> 00:34:09.025
They understand risk, they understand hazards.

00:34:12.949 --> 00:34:14.815
So risk analysis, hazard analysis, should be the way you can.

00:34:14.815 --> 00:34:18.427
So we do the risk analysis, a lot of risk analysis, hazard analysis, lots of hazard analysis.

00:34:18.427 --> 00:34:21.057
And then we talk to process engineer.

00:34:21.057 --> 00:34:28.423
We try to convince or like spread the message among the wider audience who is working in some sense on the project.

00:34:28.423 --> 00:34:31.878
So if they're all OK, I would be given go ahead.

00:34:31.878 --> 00:34:43.891
Ok, go with your two hour rating on this, but I mean, as good as it sounds interesting, this is equally frustrating if you have to do this for every room, every floor and the whole project.

00:34:43.891 --> 00:34:49.362
And it's just an iterative process, it's not a simply straightforward process.

00:34:49.362 --> 00:34:58.601
So this is what you probably see like the nuclear project runs for five to seven, ten years in the consultancy period, only for design which is not bad, which is not bad.

00:34:58.670 --> 00:35:17.460
But just like again what I'm trying to say from the beginning, if there was clearly defined rules or document from the government or by a committee I mean it could be a committee for certain country, could be European committee, could be, you know, I don't know they can come together, work on this report or document.

00:35:17.460 --> 00:35:21.603
In a few years they can come up with a set of requirements for that area.

00:35:21.603 --> 00:35:29.371
It will be much easier, we'll save time, we'll save a lot of time and we will reduce the risk for everyone who is involved in this project.

00:35:29.371 --> 00:35:31.878
So that's what is the experience on the nuclear.

00:35:32.278 --> 00:35:33.762
I observed this in my own country.

00:35:33.762 --> 00:35:40.054
Like the public is generally outraged that it's gonna take 10 years to design, or seven, eight years to design a power plant.

00:35:40.054 --> 00:35:42.621
Like what's so hard about designing a power plant?

00:35:42.621 --> 00:35:53.152
But now, as you bring now you understand well I mean I, I resonate with what you say and I see how it overly complicated.

00:35:53.351 --> 00:36:08.844
If you have to do a safety safety case for everything you do and explicitly show the reasoning behind your choices, make them align with each other, work together with people who come from a different technical culture.

00:36:08.844 --> 00:36:12.847
Because there is no Polish manufacturer of power plants, we don't have one.

00:36:12.847 --> 00:36:16.418
You need to work with Korean, french, american.

00:36:16.418 --> 00:36:22.500
There are manufacturers of those devices, so you have to team up with them and they will bring their own experience.

00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:31.657
They have their own requirement they will bring their own requirements and on, and on top of that you have a very, let's say, primitive fire safety code that just relates to buildings.

00:36:31.657 --> 00:36:33.791
Yeah, and they and they will say, oh, you know what?

00:36:33.791 --> 00:36:37.599
Your reactor room is 26 meters tall, so tall.

00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:38.822
So it's a high-rise building.

00:36:38.822 --> 00:36:44.719
We had that in many power plants in Poland.

00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.623
There were these energetic pylons going up.

00:36:47.623 --> 00:36:53.530
There had a staircase inside and they were qualified under the building law as a super tall building.

00:36:53.530 --> 00:36:56.097
We had to pressurize the staircases.

00:36:56.097 --> 00:36:57.800
That led to nowhere.

00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:05.452
They connected to a room on the bottom and another one at the height of 100 meters and you worked on that project like it was a hotel skyscraper.

00:37:05.452 --> 00:37:06.978
It was ridiculous.

00:37:06.978 --> 00:37:12.755
I forgot about that experience and now you brought it up and I don't like it.

00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:25.789
Just to add one more thing on this nuclear Whatever you do at the end of the day as a fire engineer on this team, there is also a big, big input from the team who's working on blast resistance.

00:37:25.789 --> 00:37:35.315
So you may end up in saying that I need one hour fire resistance and like, let's say, 100 mm thick wall, and he may come out and say, no, I need 600 thick, 600 mm thick wall for the blast reasons.

00:37:35.315 --> 00:37:37.889
And or you cannot use your silicate fire damper because and say, no, I need 600-em thick wall for the blast reasons.

00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:45.460
Or you cannot use your silicate fire damper because it's going to crush yield to the blast something like that.

00:37:46.291 --> 00:37:51.902
And apart from the blast, there is another so many security-oriented requirements which I cannot talk.

00:37:51.902 --> 00:37:56.474
So this is very complex, but you cannot make any decision.

00:37:56.474 --> 00:38:04.179
To be, in short, in your isolation, which is good for the starting point, but when it reaches to the end point, it just becomes so frustrating.

00:38:04.769 --> 00:38:08.902
I'll ask you a more like trivial engineer's question.

00:38:08.902 --> 00:38:13.621
So for the cable tunnel, for nuclear, that must also be a case.

00:38:13.621 --> 00:38:20.893
Let's assume you choose to design a feature for the building and you choose the fire engineering route.

00:38:20.893 --> 00:38:24.108
So I would assume the fire engineering is not that different.

00:38:24.108 --> 00:38:26.353
Like you would do some cfd you do like.

00:38:26.353 --> 00:38:31.690
Perhaps everything has a different level of uncertainty, every choice is different.

00:38:31.690 --> 00:38:36.916
But that's what I want to ask, like how do you come up with a design fire, for example for a cable tunnel or for nuclear?

00:38:36.916 --> 00:38:38.275
I mean there is no howard morgan up with a design fire, for example for a cable tunnel or for nuclear.

00:38:38.275 --> 00:38:43.619
I mean there is no howard morgan's book on design fires for nuclear facilities that you can say.

00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:46.378
Howard morgan said in 1990 that is five megawatts.

00:38:46.378 --> 00:38:48.123
No, how do you make a?

00:38:48.123 --> 00:38:49.307
How do you get to the numbers?

00:38:49.588 --> 00:38:54.577
okay, so since you raised it already, I have to have to say something about it.

00:38:54.577 --> 00:38:57.181
So let's say about the cables.

00:38:57.181 --> 00:39:27.637
And interestingly they both get related to this point because the rules or the guidance that we use to define the cable fire sizes, it comes from the nuclear industry, from states, and there are new regulations, so they have certain recommendations so you can use those reports or technical documents to calculate what you should be working to and then you get a file size.

00:39:27.637 --> 00:39:33.440
But this is only a starting point and it generally gets debated a lot in the industry.

00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.396
That isn't the real representation.

00:39:35.396 --> 00:39:47.275
So I mean, at some some point we were so much into the project we have to literally talk to someone called a cable engineer and I was like, oh, do we have a cable engineers as well in indonesia?

00:39:47.275 --> 00:39:48.358
They are cable engineers.

00:39:48.478 --> 00:39:50.650
And then we go into very much detail.

00:39:50.650 --> 00:39:58.280
And the problem with the detail is like the more you go into detail, the more you get lost and confused if you don't know what exactly you need to stop.

00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:00.858

206 - Fire Engineering Infrastructural Projects with Mukesh Tomar

Listen On

Recent Episodes

Support On