248 - JRC update on Fire Safety Engineering in Europe with Francesca Sciarretta

Wojciech: 0:01

Hello everybody. Welcome to the Fire Science Show. In today's episode, we are going more closely into the European Union, but, no matter the locality, what happens in here propagates everywhere, where one global ecosystem of fire, engineering and actually spreading the knowledge of how fire safety engineering can be done and done well is, is critical to improve, our ability to. Do our jobs in our own countries, and that's actually the of this episode. In this episode, I have invited Francesca Sciarretta. Francesca is an officer at the European Commission's Joint Cent Center, JRC Francesca Li more about what JRC is in the episode and JRC is. The Research Institute of the European Commission, and they European Commission in decision making by providing basis for those decisions. And what the group in which, uh, Francesca is located is They are looking into fire safety and fire safety engineering.. So some years ago, JRC has performed, a survey and produced a report on the prospects of implementing performance based fire safety engineering in Europe. And since then a lot has happened. I've been a part of their expert network as SFP Europe. We have done our own survey to check out how the. Prospects of implementing PBD look in the eyes of the and in the eyes of the engineers who are trying to be, uh, who, who applied performance based engineering. And, finally last year, the outcomes of our. Joint efforts have been published in the newly released JRC and this is, as you can imagine, a big part of what we are about today. But that's not all of it. Uh, uh, JRC is looking beyond, we have some very important Second generation EUROCODES implementation of, uh, products regulation, C-P-R, E-P-B-D requirements, many, acts of flow. That happen at the European level that kind of affect safety, that fire safety needs to be a part of. And in this episode we discuss how this is shaped, what can done at the European level and what cannot be done at the level. That's very, very important to understand. Finally, we also look into education and how of education is supporting, ability of, fire safety to work across Europe. so in general, JRC is a great ally for us, for safety They do great activities. You should also look into their fiap, uh, webinars, which are excellent source of, Continuous education. And if you're a listener of the podcast, I guess continuous is something that you actually like and do. Anyway, that's a very long intro for a very interesting, uh, conversation with, uh, Francesca Sciarretta from the JRC. Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode. The Fire Science Show podcast is brought to you in with OFR Consultants. OFR is the UK's leading independent multi-award winning fire engineering consultancy with a reputation for delivering safety driven solutions. we've been on this journey together for three years so far, and here it begins the fourth year of collaboration between the Science Show and the OFR. So far, we've brought you more than 150 episodes, Which into nearly 150 hours of educational content available, free, accessible, all over the planet without any paywalls or hidden agendas. This makes me very proud and I am super thankful to OFR for long lasting partnership. I'm extremely happy that we've just started the year four, I hope there will be many years after that to come So big OFR for your support to the Fire Science show and the to the fire safety community at large that we can And for you, the listener, if you would like to learn more or perhaps even become a part of OR, they always have awaiting. Check their website@orconsultants.com And now to the episode. Hello everybody. I am joined today by Francesca Sciarretta from the Joint Center of the European Commission. Hello, Francesca.

Francesca Sciarretta: 4:47

Good morning. Good morning, everybody.

Wojciech: 4:49

thank you for taking this invitation. Uh, the reason you are here is that JRC is, looking into a of stuff that's happening in the world of fire safety and we are looking at JRC. What are you doing? And we would love to learn, the directions. There has been, recent report published. Uh, the previous one was, I believe, 23. This one is published, uh, just last year, prospects for a fire safety engineering approach in Europe. I am really eager to discuss it with you.

Francesca Sciarretta: 5:19

Thank you. Thank you Ek, for giving me this, opportunity for, uh, disseminating our work. Uh, of which you are, you are a, uh, a

Wojciech: 5:29

my, my name is there. I'm, um, I don't think my contributions were very substantial, but thank you. I, I'm, but you know, you get dropped onto all of those, uh, commissions and meetings and, some are very long, some are boring. But the, the meetings that you organize for the Jersey, I really enjoy.

Francesca Sciarretta: 5:46

Oh, thank you.

Wojciech: 5:47

Uh, so yeah. Let's, let's get on to this. I think uh, the first thing we need to, uh, tell the it, what is the JRC and what's its relationship to European because this will largely explain on what we can discuss and with what certainty we can answer questions, right.

Francesca Sciarretta: 6:08

Yes, of course. I will begin from that. I, uh, I am a scientific project officer within European Commission Joint Research Center. This is the full name of the JRC. I am an architect and the PhD in structural uh, before entering the European Commission, I an academic, uh, researcher and teacher for 12 in Italian France.

Wojciech: 6:30

W were you investigating Masonry by some chance?

Francesca Sciarretta: 6:33

masonry and especially fire, uh, resistance and,

Wojciech: 6:37

I know that because we were just, we were just writing a about Euro Code five and your papers came up and like, oh The world is so small. Such a small and nice place. I know her. Nice.

Francesca Sciarretta: 6:48

yes. The world of masonry and fire is quite small. Yes. And it was even smaller when I began. Uh, well, uh, the JRC is a directorate general of the European Commission. meaning it's one of the departments the is organized into, directorate generals are for different policy areas while, the JRC is not, a policy, uh, directorate, carries out research. It, uh, supports the, uh, European Union with, independent research. uh, of course we work closely with other director generals of the European Commissions, European and agencies, uh, organizations for research and for policy in, uh, European member states and, many other different stakeholders, scientific in, uh, both in Europe and out of the European We are based in, five different, locations, in including, uh, ISRA, is my site, Uh, in particular, I work at the JRC unit, uh, built environment, mission is to contribute to, better, European competitiveness. very much strong intent on competitiveness uh, which would enhance the resilience of the built

Wojciech: 8:18

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 8:19

To the same. We perform research.

Wojciech: 8:24

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 8:25

the safety and security of buildings. I specifically work at a project, in support of the European policies, uh, and, uh, standards, sustainable construction and, especially ecosystem in particular. uh, this project is, on the Euro codes. It involves, the Euro codes. Uh, we know, euro codes are a series of, uh, standards, EN 91, 2, 3, et cetera. for, uh, structural seismic, an geotechnical of civil constructions.

Wojciech: 9:02

And fire.

Francesca Sciarretta: 9:02

Fire. Yes, of course. Every, uh, every Euro codes has, its, fire uh, historically, I would say that, the been supporting the Euro codes research. I, I remember that, the first building, designed with Euro codes was, uh, tested. The first prototype was tested at, our

Wojciech: 9:23

Okay.

Francesca Sciarretta: 9:23

the European Laboratory for Structural Elsa, in the nineties. And, uh, after that, many, many reference tests, and, uh, calibration tests were carried out.

Wojciech: 9:34

If I, if I may ask you a, a follow up question. JRC is more like a background support to what's the commission or is it directly developing those codes?

Francesca Sciarretta: 9:46

No, no. It's a support. uh, we don't develop, standard.

Wojciech: 9:51

hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 9:51

we provide, we are the knowledge and science

Wojciech: 9:54

So you make sure that whoever designs those standards is, is armed with the best and more UpToDate knowledge, uh, to do this. Okay, it's important to clean those things because, you European structure, the bureaucratic system of European is not, a simple one to, to, just to say, and, uh, and that, a lot of countries, uh, well, to, to best of my, of my understanding, fire safety engineering in particular is also a domain, in which the countries are some extent like in a way. Right.

Francesca Sciarretta: 10:28

Yes. Yes. We will, uh, deal with that, uh, later.

Wojciech: 10:33

yes. Yeah. I ask because it is also necessary that people understand, know, what's possible, what's not possible, to be done on,

Francesca Sciarretta: 10:46

yes. I can mention the subsidiarity principle.

Wojciech: 10:49

yeah, please.

Francesca Sciarretta: 10:50

the subsidiarity principle applies, the union and the member states. Uh, according to this principle, uh, uh, the on safety in general remains with the member It's not a matter for, European, uh, European legislation may concern, uh, the ecosystem, yes. But, uh, concerning safety in particular, the remains with the member states.

Wojciech: 11:18

However true regulations of construction ecosystem in Digi whole, uh, harmonization of the construction products also to some extent touches safety as one of the, the parts, right. But it's not the regulation that is supposed to guide in Europe. It's, it's a market regulation basically. That's, that's my understanding.

Francesca Sciarretta: 11:41

No, no. the Treaty of the European Union, the competence,

Wojciech: 11:47

with.

Francesca Sciarretta: 11:48

And, uh, yes, possibly, uh, it may be delegated to regions, to local authority, but, uh, it's also uh, with, different, uh, histories, building also, physical condition, history, geography. However, the activity, at European level is

Wojciech: 12:08

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 12:08

uh, unravels, uh, through regulations, of course, especially through the construction product, regulation, the CPR, uh, which ensures, uh, the market uh, the products, uh, for, uh, construction. it is very important, especially concerning, the technical language basis. It provides This is very important to, order for

Wojciech: 12:33

Yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 12:34

and to facilitate the market on the grounds of a common language.

Wojciech: 12:39

Uh, and, and the single market is one of the biggest of the European Union, and, it must extend to the products market as well. Okay. Uh, last time, we had a JRC in, in the podcast was, with Mania, your colleague, and that was, when the JRC survey on Protection Engineering was released for the first time. since then some stuff has happened. we as SFP, we've engaged with you to provide a second look at survey. a, a whole discussion panel on that. What, what was happening on your end in those, uh, in those, two years? Maybe you can gimme some updates.

Francesca Sciarretta: 13:16

Yes, yes, we are, uh, talking about, two main of our work. the first report, which was, presented by Adam here at, uh, the Fire Science Show. It was published in 2023 at the beginning

Wojciech: 13:31

I remember that. Yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 13:33

the latest report, has just been published just the end of 2025. basically in 2023, we, published essentially the results of an inquiry, uh, which was conceived, our, uh, expert network.

Wojciech: 13:47

hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 13:47

uh, we have not yet mentioned the expert, uh,

Wojciech: 13:51

Yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 13:52

Uh, yes. a specific, task that, JRC performs for, uh, growth, the director general for, uh, internal industry and, uh, entrepreneurship dedicated to development of fire safety engineering approach for its, uh, uh, wider implementation in Europe To this task, we, JRC convene, uh, uh, network of, uh, including many stakeholders. of course, uh, uh, Digi grow, DGNR, which is the directorate, for energy. Uh, the JRC, technical Committee for the relevant committees, TC two, uh, TC two 50 the structural Euro codes. TC 1 27 for the Fire Safety of Buildings is o TC 92 for fire safety with some of their most subgroups, uh, and other, of, uh, the main European stakeholders, of course, uh, SFP, you represent, uh, the European Fire Safety Alliance, Alliance, fire Safety, Europe, and, universities including, uh, Lund and, uh, DT and many others. Uh, this network supports our, work, uh, has, contributed, especially to the second report we published. to, briefly recap the starting point for, uh, audience. the 20 3 report demonstrated that, the of fire safety engineering was not uh, fully uh, 30 contacted countries.

Wojciech: 15:25

By fire safety engineering, from my understanding mean is what a lot of people would call as performance Fire safety engineering also, right?

Francesca Sciarretta: 15:33

exactly.

Wojciech: 15:33

yeah, yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 15:34

Exactly.

Wojciech: 15:35

Just important clarification.

Francesca Sciarretta: 15:37

based design of fire safety was not, uh, fully in, uh, uh, regulations and practice in the countries, which were a lot. We were a large number, including all the 27, Union member states plus, uh, three afta Iceland, Switzerland, and Norway. And, the UK and Serbia. It was, very, very big bunch of, uh, responder. it is important to mention that, the to this questionnaire were belonging to, the

Wojciech: 16:13

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 16:13

country. Uh, what, uh, what about the results? On one hand, uh, we got, uh, a very fragmented for some aspects, especially qualification for professionals and for regulatory fire safety, engineering approaching projects. This is a very important element. On the other hand, we could, appreciate the for, uh, a wider, uh, full implementation of, performance-based design is high be virtually applied to, uh, almost every type of building and in many technical areas.

Wojciech: 16:51

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 16:52

areas are the technical details of which, a fire

Wojciech: 16:57

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 16:57

meaning, uh, fire resistance, spreading of smoke, uh, alarm, uh, evacuation, et cetera. to unlock this potential, it is crucial to have, uh, uh, standards supporting professionals performing their tasks and supporting their, identity, uh, especially, uh, at university level and complemented by, uh, appropriate the assessment of these, uh, two main needs was the starting point for us to begin the new, phase of

Wojciech: 17:34

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 17:34

in the remainders of 2023. we started, thinking and working about, uh, how further investigate these, needs. Uh, first with what we already had in our hands, the results of inquiry, conceived, uh, with, uh, did you grow and with, uh, experts and, uh, in, 20 20, 20 21 during the pandemics with, uh, uh, what you can imagine about, uh, the, the I presented a first update, on what we wanted to do at, the Fiap, education and Fire Safety It was the starting of a detailed mapping by country of, availability and needs for, uh, uh, education and training as they were expressed by fire regulators. Uh, it allowed first, to see that, at least partial availability is there in many, in many countries. While training is, a little less available. However, what, is striking, uh, is the, uh,

Wojciech: 18:41

Okay.

Francesca Sciarretta: 18:41

need to increase both education, but This is, perceived unanimously through, uh, member states after and, non-European Union Then, after, after that webinar, uh, we convened and the network again in 2024, uh, to new tasks, uh, the timelines, the deadlines, uh, we prepared uh, detailed mapping of education by course, program by program. thanks to our, uh, experts, who were, quite in the right, environment, to know, the expert information on, uh, available, uh, uh, education and training in fire safety engineering, uh, at European University. What we wanted was to, clarify, why these striking needs education, for which type of so important. We wanted to analyze, the central role of in, training competencies, and, its relationship with, uh, professional recognition, and, uh, the role of fire safety engineering In building It's a, a step-by-step, process how, fire engineers acquire what they need and, is support Then after they are qualified, after are allowed to practice, is there enough support for their typical tasks?

Wojciech: 20:16

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 20:20

for which they can, depending on, uh, uh, on the legal framework, they can, uh, undertake It's a step. I become an engineer. I qualify to practice. I do my task. I make, everything it's needed in the Then, I need to uptake responsibility for what done.

Wojciech: 20:39

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 20:40

it's a mechanism. It's a whole mechanism depressing of the chain.

Wojciech: 20:44

Yes, yes. Very hard to expect that people, you can give them, uh, power of, of responsibility for, for projects or, you know, ability to sign off projects when you don't provide any means to them as well. It's, it's very difficult if you have trained someone in 20, 30 years ago and expect that, by that training they maintain a lifelong competency in the ever changing, field as fire engineering. So, I agree though those are. Critical, critical, elements. Yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 21:14

Yes. That's why probably that's why, the need for is so, so strongly perceived.

Wojciech: 21:20

in the meantime, we've also been playing with your, with survey at SF Europe. The reason why, why we've tried to do that was that I remember when we've published, the podcast with the dementia and, the, the documents started circulating around. A lot of people were saying, oh, no, no, this is It says that in my country it's forbidden when we practice it or others. People said, no, no, it says you can't practice, and I was allowed to use this. And I'm like, uh, yeah. Well, one, the questionnaire by JRC was answered by you mentioned, close to the regulators. Not by practitioners. And my second opinion was like immediately, and this was by our task, is that, you know, two people can view the same thing and have a different opinion and they may be both correct because it's not, uh, easy. And, and what I've learned when we were doing this study, it was very, very, it was fascinating to find, is that people were initially saying that something is opposite or something is, is different. When they started reading the question, we had number of to agree what the questions mean. You know, we, we had like three, I think hour or two hour long meetings where we would just go as SFP or through the list questions and make sure that we read the question in the way. Once we agreed on the way we read the question, someone is, you know what, if you read the question like this, then the is correct. But the question is not necessarily, you know, binary oh But that's, that's the nature of fire safety engineering. It's not a simple matter that you can define with, with one and, and be done with it. Right.

Francesca Sciarretta: 23:02

it's a sort of discipline, it's a sort of, grouping, uh, different, uh, points of view. And, uh, yes, uh, it's very difficult to convey this in a questionnaire.

Wojciech: 23:13

one more thing that I need to ask you, because in your report, engineering is, is investigated, in relationship to a construction ecosystem.

Francesca Sciarretta: 23:26

Oh yes.

Wojciech: 23:26

I, I, I, I find that link very interesting. How, how do you understand that link from, from, uh, your

Francesca Sciarretta: 23:33

well, if we, uh, reflect on the word ecosystem, it is more than a system. not simply, uh, a sustainable construction is not simply a system of. Let's say green buildings. It is a network, a network made, of actors. it includes, policy financing, uh, uh, standards, low carbon, materials, digital design tools, uh, construction methods, um, circularity in um, skills promotions, stakeholders engagement. And, um, it covers, every stage of life cycle. A building. It's not just a system in space, but also in time. we aim to, minimize impact to minimize carbon waste production, social impact. Social impact is the sustainable construction is, quite central in the current, uh, agenda European Union, uh, policies. It is a field where, uh, the climate, neutrality

Wojciech: 24:37

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 24:38

while maintaining the, economic value, uh, economic value competitiveness. the strategic priority for this is very high. uh, a sustainable construction, is uh, is in, uh, European Union policies for climate, energy, and also for society.

Wojciech: 24:59

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 24:59

For instance, we have also recognized in our fire safety is a major societal issue.

Wojciech: 25:06

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 25:07

a societal issue. We can simply think that, 90% of all fire induced fatalities in Europe are due to fires in uh, building fires, impact society. The environment, economy and, uh, uh, may span across, many, many years. And even for a lifetime. in households, this issue remains while, the world is evolving, technologies, architecture, and, uh, societal demands evolve. Energy efficiency, low environmental this is in one word, sustainability. It is now incorporated in, uh, uh, both in and member state policies. I would spend a word, uh, about evolution, uh, of architecture towards, especially towards

Wojciech: 25:55

Yes, please.

Francesca Sciarretta: 25:56

Inclusiveness and affordability. the European, union is, particularly focused on, uh, inclusiveness and affordability. You may have heard that, the affordable housing, uh, uh, plan uh, has just been released. And, safety, must remain, uh, within this, this this is very important. This is, uh, in the priorities.

Wojciech: 26:21

And, and how does fire safety become a part of that? Does this mean that within a, a kind of sustainable ecosystem guidance or recommendations or, or technical include for fire safety in that? Or you just leave this completely to the, uh, the countries you just, I dunno, expect the sustainability to happen?

Francesca Sciarretta: 26:46

the CPR, uh, let's, uh, let's mention the CPR, example. fire safety is one of the, is one of the main uh, for a construction product. uh, it is quite a European level requirement.

Wojciech: 26:59

I mean this is important because like while the, the safety is a part of, national mandate or what, whatever the set up, what safety they like in their country, from this you can make sure that for, let's say any sustainability that you put forward, they do not impose fire safety in, in a way it's a very interesting interplay and very between, especially between sustainability and fire That, that I observe. So it's difficult, but I think it's important to, the most thing for me is that when you are working on sustainability, the fire safety engineering is in. Within that, and it's in its core that it's not something, know, that we figure out after we get sustainability, because that's not gonna work from my perspective at least.

Francesca Sciarretta: 27:49

Yes.

Wojciech: 27:53

Yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 27:53

the building Performance Directive, which, fire, fire safety.

Wojciech: 27:58

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 27:58

Uh, fire safety must be addressed in new and, uh, uh, in major, uh, renovation of existing buildings. now, the EPBD is being implemented with guidance and training documents, and with the template uh, building renovation plans, uh, which, uh, a specific annex with, and measures, to fire safety. So we have, uh, uh, important support.

Wojciech: 28:27

Mm. Okay. let, let, let's move towards the outcomes of, of those of work. so, uh, in the relationship to the fire safety very briefly, and then we would come back to education, that's very interesting to me. Uh, maybe let, let's just have, uh, three minutes talking what's the update on the state of Fire Safety Engineering in this current report after we've exchanged some, data between SFP and and and GRC, We're not as successful as, as you, we had less, uh, chapters, uh, responded, uh, but, but we still our best to, to have a democratic over, uh, representation fire safety engineers across Europe. Did you find anything, uh, new with this additional view on, Engineering?

Francesca Sciarretta: 29:10

Well, we are, uh, first of all, we, we are very for this, uh, uh, new information for a better

Wojciech: 29:20

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 29:21

the level of implementation of, performance based fire safety design in Europe. uh, well, the responding groups which were, uh, quite different from each other. Uh, I mentioned, uh, 30 countries, for, JRC inquiry, which, uh, included all the uh, union member states plus, uh, other While, um, and the results, uh, you could provide

Wojciech: 29:54

Yeah, if I may comment on our end, it was, a little bit more complicated because what we wanted is not a single person's We've actually asked the chapters to come up with a technical groups that they thought they would represent the fire engineers in that country to the fullest. So in some countries it was just a small group of people. In some countries, there was like the entire chapter working on it. So this was an outcome of workshops, uh, done by the SFP for which I'm very thankful. It was, uh, a lot of work, but, uh, from what I learned and what I've, uh, the feedback I've received, everyone had time doing this because you can learn a lot when you do this. Uh, so, uh, It was much broader representation, not a single person's, you know, evaluation, but at the same time of the expected, you know, workload, not every, uh, chapter was capable to, to do it and finish on time. Some finished after. So yeah, life happens, but, but still, we were happy with responses.

Francesca Sciarretta: 31:03

Yes, yes. I, I would be happy to, to return. To return back.

Wojciech: 31:08

It could be an interesting thing to do this like every five to 10 years, you know, to just see the progress, But, uh, l let, let's focus on the outcomes maybe.

Francesca Sciarretta: 31:18

Yes, yes. um, with such different groups, uh, we could two different views in the same country, as far, uh, as the general results are concerned, we appreciate that, uh, uh, the prevalence of approach in fire design is confirmed both sides.

Wojciech: 31:40

Yeah.

Francesca Sciarretta: 31:40

This is the main results, uh, concerning, uh, The much debated, uh, uh, matter of allowance fire safety engineering approach? well, uh, it is, uh, as we, as we mentioned

Wojciech: 31:55

Hm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 31:57

uh, may be more prone to respond. Uh, is allowed, it is not allowed from the, from the legal point of view. is there a clause allowing for a performance design? Is there a whole performance based design, uh, code? This may be the point of view of a, of a while, uh, professionals, uh, have a have view on this. The case, uh, the case of Portugal is, uh, um. is the only one, uh, is, is the only answer who inquiries, the regulator responded that, uh, fire safety engineering is not allowed. uh, uh, the professional, the chapter of, uh,

Wojciech: 32:44

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 32:45

yes. Was explainable, was explainable, uh, issues, uh, of the approval process.

Wojciech: 32:52

we, we, we had the same in Poland, you know, uh, uh, because when we were looking into, for, for many aspects of the Polish Fire Safety Engineering, you could, uh, you, you would have technically a prescriptive code. But then for everything, you can apply a derion procedure in which you get an, an individual allowance to perform fire engineering. Right. So technically it's not allowed because the load does not tell you to do it in a fire safety engineering way. But in the eyes of a fire safety engineer, I'm absolutely that because I just have to apply one more, paper, uh, to, to get that allowance. So it's, that shows you how tricky the question is as far as safety engineering a allowed in your country or not. It's not an easy question to answer.

Francesca Sciarretta: 33:38

allowed to do what?

Wojciech: 33:41

Yeah, exactly.

Francesca Sciarretta: 33:42

This is the question.

Wojciech: 33:44

and we had also like in depth discussions, like, okay, if I a standard like for smoke control and I just take a a design fire. From that standard, have I already performed fire safety or not? Like I just took a number from my code. Is this like performance based fire safety engineering or not yet. Or maybe I have to calculate the fire to like, it was hours of interesting discussion going in depth into those elements. But you know, this also shows, how unbelievably difficult

Francesca Sciarretta: 34:24

Other, uh, uh, other aspects that are confirmed by, uh, SFP are the, potential, uh, coverage of, uh, many technical areas. Performance based design may cover, uh, quite, quite a good number of technical areas which uh, uh, what we found through the regulators'

Wojciech: 34:47

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 34:49

uh, especially, uh, smoke control fire safety and fire compartmentation.

Wojciech: 34:55

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 34:56

These are the most, uh, most indicated IRS for, uh, performance based applications. Uh, then we were also very interested in, uh, uh, uh, confirmation of the potential. For, uh, uh, fire safety engineering, uh, uh, respect to, different, uh, types, uh, types of yes. And, uh, we have found, uh, a good agreement, a agreement especially for, uh, the most, uh, types, high rise buildings, super high rise and the airport terminals. Uh, however, many more professionals consider, uh, performance based, uh, solutions, to, uh, train station subway stations and tunnels.

Wojciech: 35:47

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 35:47

which, uh, which seems to point to underground This is, uh, interesting. This may, uh, reflect, the availability of, uh, of solutions of performance-based solutions of professionals are aware of for this type, uh, type of, uh, civil, uh, buildings and infrastructures.

Wojciech: 36:11

I, I, from my perspective, um, what this indicates is that, uh, there's a direct link in how necessary fire safety, the performance based safety engineering is with the of complex. As, as the buildings become more and more complex, the they are, the less, uh, prescriptive they are. Which, which like highlights the, the, the trend that expect. You know, I I, I was perhaps surprised there's so much, based engineering in, in, uh, museums or, or, you know, uh, structures. But, uh, it was indicated in the survey that it's, it's also like quite applicable. So, so that, that, that was, that was very interesting. Um, you know what I, uh, the report is in the show notes. of the, of this episode, the listeners, the previous reports is also in the sh notes of, of this episode. So if you would like to check the 20 23, 20 25 report, take look at those service and the outcomes. Um. Please, uh, be our guest and, and take a more detailed look. You'll find all the plots and comparisons in, in, in the to education because I, I, I'm worried we'll run out of time and I, I am really interested in, in the education, the continuous education because I feel this is something we will be continuously discussing for next years, uh, in So, besides the fire safety engineering, you mentioned was an important stakeholder. How much of the European education landscape were you able uh, map? It was again, uh, all the rep representatives of every country so that, that were asked to respond to this. Was this, uh, a similar type of study?

Francesca Sciarretta: 37:58

No, it was not, uh, not an inquiry, not, uh, a survey.

Wojciech: 38:05

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 38:06

to collect information. we prepared a form. to identify, educational programs, name country of teachings, uh, syllabus in brief. how many students enroll, uh, which uh, are due to, to enroll and so on. Uh, all the, all the information that, uh, was would, come, uh, would turn to be, uh, useful in the future. uh, we could cover as far as, our, uh, experts uh, could arrive. Of course. Uh, it's possible that, we have tried to much as possible. and, uh, uh, we have particularly focused, on provided education. So as complete as we could, uh, re retrieve.

Wojciech: 38:59

okay, so if you, if you tasked me with a job of mapping the, uh, university courses, I would say this is easy. I mean, of course it, it was a lot of work, but it's easy. But, uh, but how, how, how were you approached mapping, uh, mapping the continuous education possibilities? What, what were you looking at, like, uh, courses, like DD were, were you like distinguishing those different people maintain their competencies or, 'cause I find this interesting.

Francesca Sciarretta: 39:28

Well, uh, for, uh, the purpose of, uh, the LA report, uh, we, we stuck to, two complete uh, granting at least, uh, at least one year,

Wojciech: 39:40

And, and were you looking into, perhaps professional in terms of, that some countries may expect you to do some of, continuous education, collect po We have that in Poland. If you're a chartered fire expert, you have to receive 20 from continuous education across some years to maintain your, in, in how those things are imposed in the countries.

Francesca Sciarretta: 40:07

Yes, we, uh, we tried to investigate, uh, requirements because, uh, uh, as I told you uh, uh, the picture was, uh, quite fragmented as we retrieve it. Uh, in the first report, uh, we, um, uh, four types of requirement, uh, certification issued by government or a designated body, a of, minimum, uh, minimum experience, which may from, uh, from profession, um, and from, uh, from educational, uh, courses recognized by, uh, the Uh, then a third category was, uh, by, uh, professional societies. And the fourth category, which was, uh, uh, very, very frequent was qualification at all.

Wojciech: 41:03

No qualification.

Francesca Sciarretta: 41:04

qualification, uh, predefined qualification at all. Well, um, the picture, yes, was, uh, very, very and, uh, we tried at least to, uh, assess if, was any, any kind of symmetry between what is to a professional for qualification and to regulatory reviewer to qualify. the aim was to, uh, assess the effectiveness of, uh, peer review was to assess if, the same type was in place for both, uh, categories And

Wojciech: 41:46

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 41:46

works, uh, how it may grant, uh, output in the of, uh, uh, and review.

Wojciech: 41:55

when doing this, were you broadly asking about, uh, fire as an envelope for everything or you were against, technical areas, because that's, that's also something that be interesting in, perhaps in one country you have more in structural fire engineering and no training in smoke and in other country it could be opposite, you know? Uh, so I, I wonder if, if, if you were looking into that.

Francesca Sciarretta: 42:21

Yes, we have, uh, at the end of, uh, at the end of the study, at the end of the exercise, we put in parallel, we put in parallel, uh, the of education. The presence of a, a defined, uh, symmetrical or non-symmetrical qualification uh, professionals and, uh, regulatory as well as, what are the main tasks required to, uh, a fire safety engineer? limiting to a basic, package of, selecting, uh, fires, scenarios and safety criteria, these main, uh, uh, aspects of design. And finally, we, uh, put also, in parallel our on, uh, the liability the fire safety engineer. If, they can or cannot be liable for what they And, uh, we were able to, at least to indicate, some groups of, uh, specific situations. We were able to group countries by, uh, their, overall mechanism, all these, uh, aspects.

Wojciech: 43:34

I, I think liability is, is, uh, one of the most interesting aspects of, and I'm really glad that you started looking into that. But I also think that, uh, being a part of your expert network, like this is something we need to look into because, I have a feeling that it, it, it is and will become more and more the driving force for a lot of what we discuss in here today. You know, because fire protection engineering, if the Prescriptive way is sometimes easier is, is that you know, on how well you've executed a clause of code. If you use engineering to design, then this level of liability the insurance, connects to necessity to certify credentials, uh, education to build up like, wow, this is an IM important aspect what did you find, did you find the big differences the European liability as well?

Francesca Sciarretta: 44:36

Well, generally, uh, we have found that, fire engineer can at least, be li on the grounds of, uh, certain characteristics of the For example, size, occupancy, uh, type of it is often the size of the project, uh, to, uh, determine liability of a subjects of a subject than, uh, uh, of another subject. However, uh, in the wide majority, uh, of cases, the, uh, liable subject for a fire design is, uh, a technical subject.

Wojciech: 45:17

Mm-hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 45:18

If it's not, uh, the fire specialist, it is the engineer. So, uh, it is also, another important aspect, uh, how much, performance based, fire safety integrated in, uh, basic culture, basic education of an engineer.

Wojciech: 45:35

We, uh, in Poland, we, we, we have a, a position of the general designer of the building, and that's a single person who's liable for, for, for the stuff. And then you have the branch designers who are also liable their own designs. But fire safety engineering is not the branch. So, you know, a, as much as I feel, uh, responsible for my design and responsible for my own actions, and, uh, of course, uh, try to act in an ethical, ethical manner and support who. I support in the end, like it's their responsibility in that way, which creates a challenging momentum to be honest, uh, it's largely based on trust, largely based on reputation, not based on credentials, not based on, you know, non-biased means of assessing, is that, party the, the one that you be engaging with. I wonder what are the chances we could actually, uh, you unify this in some way in Europe. Like we've unified a lot of safety characteristics through, for example.

Francesca Sciarretta: 46:40

Well, I, uh, I see it as a, as a very long, uh, way to go.

Wojciech: 46:45

I, I mean, great that you started mapping it because we, we a starting point, right?

Francesca Sciarretta: 46:49

at least we have a starting point. Uh, but, in my, in my opinion, it would be to start from education and competency and then to

Wojciech: 46:59

A liability.

Francesca Sciarretta: 47:00

at the, at the end of the process. Better, better qualified, better prepared, and uh, within better harmonized frameworks, would lead to better harmonization also under the aspects of liability. It may be like this, it may be like this, but, uh, from the root of all, is, in my opinion, the right approach.

Wojciech: 47:25

Do, do, do you think, uh, based on those findings, some could be taken to, I, I, I'm not really sure what's possible, but, uh, for sure promotion of, of, uh, education and creating high, high level fire safety engineers. That, that definitely can be done. But what do you think, or perhaps, uh, what are your plans in how to act on, on this information? Are you trying to continue on with this? What's your plan?

Francesca Sciarretta: 47:52

Yes, communication is, uh, is very, very Our expert insist very much on this aspect, uh, and especially positive communication fire safety engineering. Um, the need to attract, uh, students, is as as the need to increase educational offer. Of course, uh, uh, tuition support. Uh, the funding side is, uh, is also also, the philosophical, uh, let's say, connotation of fire safety engineering as uh, much needed and, essential to ensure, the of citizens and, uh, uh, and progress and, let's say the life, life of the, uh, construction Uh, so, uh, it is important to communicate not, uh, uh, stopping to consider fire safety.

Wojciech: 48:50

Hm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 48:51

we have, uh, uh, very, very, very clear in mind we, what we are meaning. but also, when our results are good, when, uh, it's not that visible. Of course, when, uh, uh, when design works, uh, good, is, uh, much less visible than, uh, uh, uh, design does not work or, uh, there is no at all. So we need to communicate, success stories, good practice. What, uh, uh, is proving to be successful. Uh, we must not forget that. Uh, performance based, is a field where, from experience, what we know from It's very limited. It's, uh, it's an exploratory field. uh, to treasure what, what is happening, life cycle of, buildings and, uh, construction, uh, uh, designed with, uh, performance based how they perform, uh, especially, uh, when, in, uh, real fires, how everything works and, this can stimulate, students to apply to to consider their career and their life with, with fire safety, engineering problems. Yes.

Wojciech: 50:11

I, I, I hope we'll be able to, to get those important things, uh, things done.

Francesca Sciarretta: 50:17

you told us fire safety engineer of the future a great communicator.

Wojciech: 50:24

I, believe that, I believe that that, that, uh, you know, skills is, is also critical because, uh, when you many stakeholders you have to efficiently communicate with, uh, that, that, that's critical. But, and non-competent fire communicator is perhaps even You know, when I, when I, when I think about it, if you have someone without the baseline there and without the in, in what they're doing, and that person is a great Wow. That's, that's even worse. So maybe, uh, I, I agree that, basically whatever we touch in this conversation, whether it's, uh. Proliferation of protection, fire protection, you know, credentials, liability, et cetera. You are right, you're correct. It all comes back to education and, and providing, uh, a level education for fire protection engineers. That makes sense. Is critical, especially.

Francesca Sciarretta: 51:19

this was clearly indicated by, by the Education is, uh. root of all and, uh, uh, yes. I would like to note, uh, uh, fortunately, tools are developing to support, uh, among the different subjects of, of the design, uh, review control, and, uh, inspection It is, uh, uh, it is a, a great support, and it, uh, may overcome also language barriers.

Wojciech: 51:50

Mm. when we are discussing some of that in a recent SFP board, Ram, he is an architect from, from, uh, Portugal.

Francesca Sciarretta: 51:59

yes. with me. Yes.

Wojciech: 52:02

two architects in one panel in for safety conference.

Francesca Sciarretta: 52:06

Extraordinary, everybody.

Wojciech: 52:09

yeah. But, um. The thing is, you know, for education, we have, uh, synchronized a lot of education, higher level education in through ECTS points, through the enormous, you know, of Erasmus project, uh, in fire. We have the enormously successful uh, I-M-F-S-C project but it, it's, you know, it's extremely successful for those group of people who participate in it. But it's, it's something that we perhaps would need to scale up, you know, somehow, uh, to a larger scale. So, I, I, I am also like, you know, seeing how education in Europe over the last 20, 30 years. I'm also positive that perhaps, you know, a European to the fire safety education is perhaps somewhere on I see it more doable than the fire safety code for the entire Europe, if I'm honest with you. I, I don't want an answer from you because I, I don't want to put you in a position when you promise or over promise but I just think it, it would be important, but maybe you tell me, where are you heading with, uh, with the, with the research, uh, center work. And, uh, because you, you are not wrapping the, the, the today, right? It, it is, it's continuous.

Francesca Sciarretta: 53:23

Yes, of course, of course. We are, uh, uh, just about to meet again in uh, and to ask ourself, what, we can do to, uh, to progress the work. Uh, we are starting from the conclusions of the uh, meeting as well as from the conclusion of the report, what, uh, what can be, uh, explored more in depth, for example, uh, the potential for, of, uh, of education, uh, yes, liability, as mentioned, the necessary updates that can be made periodically to what? To the, to the pictures we have taken of, um. Current, uh, situations uh, education, and so on. uh, we are wondering, uh, what we can do to uh, fire safety engineering approach in, uh, building Fire design, how to, communicate how to clarify also what, clarify more what we have, we have presented, to, uh, bring on our, uh, work on some emerging topics like, for a wide line urban interface, buildings. This is a quite, uh, quite interesting topic introduced, uh, in the last, report. Uh, also, attention is very high on, uh, the safety of asat. There are, uh, projects brought by the European on, uh, setting up, a new, unified test, uh, for, five performance of facades ads. And, uh, yes, there is the ever everlasting, uh, uh, issue of, uh, data. Of data supporting, uh, quantitative for, uh, uh, uh, design methods. And, um, we will be working on that. We will be brainstorming. Uh, it's my anticipation of what we will do. We will be brainstorming a lot. and we welcome the contribution for, uh, all, uh, all our stakeholders. and we will be, uh, eager to learn from We will be, very, very interested in, uh, news Case studies of performance based design

Wojciech: 56:00

Hmm.

Francesca Sciarretta: 56:00

uh, to begin with. Good practice.

Wojciech: 56:02

Perfect.

Francesca Sciarretta: 56:03

course, uh, uh, skillful engineers, uh, may, uh, innovative applications and draw scientific from them. it's very, uh, very useful to know about this for us. Uh, we, are, um, uh, very interested in knowing, uh, what's, the usefulness of current standards engineers use in their, uh, uh, normal, uh, and also in their, exceptional, uh, works in uh, unique, uh, works when they are called to with, innovative buildings. Of course, uh, uh, also difficulties, possible especially, linked to, uh, national context, frameworks and, friction between different of, the process of review and approval, design review and approval. This, uh, we are interested to know the uh, uh, creativity skillfulness and may become the foundation for, uh, something new, future methods, future, uh, even, even

Wojciech: 57:16

Fantastic. I, uh, I also highly, um. Recommend the listeners, uh, want to go through the ongoing, uh, documents produced by the JRC and the expert group and, see if you, if you feel like you could contribute. Because if we understand the processes better, that's what you know, guide those decisions better. And, and what Francesca is doing is providing, you know, and technical background so that those decisions made at the higher levels are, uh, done for the benefit of safety, I Because if we work for better fire safety engineering, in end we are working for a better and, uh, safer world. I can also add, uh, that, they are organizing a lot of workshops and webinars and, and things that you can look uh, for the links are in the show notes. uh, efforts.

Francesca Sciarretta: 58:11

Uh, I would like to to briefly mention, uh, uh, is, actively, promoting, uh, webinars, uh, which are, in my opinion, the perfect place for to meet.

Wojciech: 58:23

Absolutely.

Francesca Sciarretta: 58:24

yes, FIEP, uh, supports, uh, knowledge exchange. it stimulates, the exchange of best, best practices and the lessons learned in the era of fire Fiep was, initial trigger. Also, also for us, our work on fire safety was, uh, uh, conceived in line with, uh, the of fiep, which included of course, uh, fire safety engineering for the built environment. uh, I invite you to subscribe for updates and, to follow, FIEP webinars. I will be there.

Wojciech: 59:02

Uh, and, and those are really good webinars, good speakers. A lot of people. I, I think I've seen some with like hundreds of people that's like really huge for a webinar in Europe, Francesca. So good job on that. Um, I guess, uh, we will, uh, call it on, on, on this. So, uh, thank you so much for coming to, to the Fire Science Show and sharing updates with, uh, with our audience. I think it's gonna be a continuous thing every, every, uh, and then, especially when you publish a report. I'm gonna invite a representative of JC to, to discuss I think it's important that, uh, we, uh, we stay in touch we understand what's happening and what the JRC is And, also. In the other way, if, if, uh, we can find ways to contribute, I would love to, uh, support you either through my work or, or through this project and, all the best for the of, uh, of, fire safety engineering in Jersey.

Francesca Sciarretta: 1:00:00

Thank you. Thank you very much, EK. I appreciate uh, your, uh, your kindness, your very much.

Wojciech: 1:00:08

Thank you. And that's it. Uh, thank you for listening. A lot of updates. I think the critical part in here, which, um, I always like to cover when we discuss the legislation at the European Union is that people need to understand how European Union works. What Parts of the law making process remain at the at countries and what PO can be merged into pan-European schemes. And it's quite interesting because for safety in general is in the power of every single member country to define for but through directives like construction product or EPBD directive. The European Union has capability to enforce something so the fire safety is kind of guaranteed across to Europe at the same level to every, citizen of, of the eu and, uh, like. Euro codes. This is not a local project. I mean, it's obviously made for Europe, but this is that propagates across the world and definitely creation of codes was, uh, a trigger for a lot of the development in structural fire safety. And I hope that the second generation of Euro codes opens us to, uh, new possibilities. Finally, uh, the education part, this is very important to me. I've picked it up that it's interesting that they start at education and when we had a discussion panel in Copenhagen at SFP conference two years ago. We discussed that while you have the freedom to sell your on the unified European market, you don't really have that freedom of working across Europe as far as safety engineer. It's not that you're forbidden, it's that the systems in countries are so vastly different that it's very difficult jump from one place to another. So this is something we should be looking into. How do we kind of unify the profession? Make sure that the quality of fire safety engineering across Europe is, is at the same high level and at the same time, uh, provide ability for people to be able to work and travel. at the same time with free borders that we actually have in Uh, I hope a lot of that was relevant to you if you're not the European Union. For me, it was a very interesting conversation. It's very important for us to, to, to have a nice relationship with JRC because they are our allies in fighting for fire engineering. This interview was recorded shortly before this year's meeting, it was a very nice meeting. There's a very few meetings in the year that, that I am uh, up to, uh, meetings that take a whole day. But it was interesting and I'm sure the new, uh, work is set out. And, in some time, we will be able to up update you once again about what's, uh, ion and, And how the, the state of stuff in the has progressed. That's it for today's episode. Thank you for listening and see you here once again next for more fire science coming your way. Cheers. Bye.