259 - Communicating fire science with politicians with Birgitte Messerschmidt

Why Fire Science Communication Matters

Wojciech 0:00

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Fire Science Show. I have promised you to deliver more expanded version of the IFSS, uh, workshop that I've organized, a few weeks ago on communications in fire science. you know that this topic is important to me. I find it very interesting. I find that we don't speak enough about how we communicate fire science effectively, and it's one of the gaps for us to, succeed broadly. Therefore, I chose to talk with some people on this important subject, and we're pretty much discovering it as we go and simply sharing our best experiences and our best thoughts on the topic. It's not something someone spent researching 10 years and now can give you an outcomes of a big research grant. If there's such a person, I would love to talk to them. So far, we are figuring that out as we go. Uh, one of the speakers of the seminar was Birgitte Messerschmidt from NFPA, and, uh, Birgitte, I asked her to cover discussing fire science with politicians. And, that term is, I guess, in a broader sense because that's anyone, you know, from your governments, ministries, lawmakers through various types of commissions, local, international, uh, your county, your regional authorities, uh, the mayor of your town uh, the local people who approve your building, and all local bodies to whom you have to describe and show some sort of fire safety concepts. This can also be grant bodies. Communication with all those, uh, groups of people is specific because, one, they're not fire professionals, which creates some challenges. Two, depending on the circumstances and situations, you may have to do that in a very, very limited time manner, so that, that's a challenge as well. And, three, they will potentially have their own goals or agendas, which are likely political and may not align with, uh, with, you know, pure venture for safety, which I hope that you are representing. Therefore, this creates interesting momentum. This creates interesting challenges in that communication, choices for you as the person who communicates. And, uh, if you want it to be effective, uh, you cannot go unprepared. And this episode basically is a conversation between me and Birgitte on how to get yourself prepared to such a conversation, and I hope we share some interesting tidbits inside of, of the episode. So enough of talking. Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

squadcaster-e4ag_1_05-27-2026_144803 2:56

The

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How A Fire Nerd Meets Power

Wojciech 3:57

Hello, everybody. I am joined today by Birgitte Messerschmidt from the NFPA. Hey, Birgitte

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 4:02

Hey, Wojciech. Glad to be back

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 4:04

Ah, welcome back. Like, you feel comfortable in here. That's good. here we are again, and I've promised I'm gonna deliver an extended version of the IFSS workshop that we held a, a few weeks ago or a few months ago, actually. Uh, so here we are. I've invited you back then to discuss communicating fire science with, uh, broadly speaking, people in positions of power, which includes anyone from heads of professional organizations up to, politicians and bureaucrats. And, that's a whole different, audience to communicate with. And my first question is: how does a fire scientist end up in a situation when they have to talk to a politician?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 4:50

that's, that's a good question. So that, that give- will give you a little bit of review of my history, right? So, I mean, I've always been a, a fire nerd and I was, for a good chunk early in my career, worked really h- uh, a lot in fire standards, which is why we've had previous conversations about

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 5:06

Yep

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 5:06

but at, at one point, and it was back when, when I was working, at Rockwool, my boss challenged me, and he was like, "I think we should try and talk to some other people than just doing standardization work." And I literally was like, "Over my dead decomposing body. I like my technical work. I'm g- I like speaking technical," so I was like, "There's no way I'm gonna do that." So he was like, "No, I really think you can do it." I was like, "Okay, well," so, he then just threw me out in the deep end of the pool with, some, people that were very experienced in this area. so I got involved in, Fire Safe Europe when that was set up, and it's, it's still existing and still an active organization. and it was through there that, part of my career started with talking to politicians.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 5:52

In Europe

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 5:53

in Europe. In Europe. Haven't done it in the US, so I cannot give an American, uh, side on it. I can actually only give the, the European side of it.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 6:02

That's fine as well

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 6:03

that politicians are politicians

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 6:05

Yeah.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 6:06

So, and what's interesting in Europe is, of course, you talk to politicians from many different, countries as well. so yeah, I was just, I was just threw int- thrown into it, um, with people who were public affairs professionals who knew nothing about fire. So I was the technical fire expert, and they knew how to do this kind of talking to politicians, and that was super interesting. If I... To anyone, if ever you get a chance to work with somebody who does something completely different and, and communicate, things in a very different way, and they wanna work with you and try and figure out how to communicate your area in that way, such a learning experience. So that's, that's how I got thrown into that. Yeah. And it started out with me just being quiet, sitting there listening, and then in the end, I was actually going on my own after a year of training.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 6:55

I guess this whole setting and arrangement, is gonna depend on the circumstances that I can think about two different circumstances that are vastly different. One, when you are actively trying to get there and raise a topic that's close to your heart or your interests or whatever you're representing at that point. And two, when you're being asked by politicians to explain a matter that is, uh, not well understood by them or you're basically invited as an expert. They're like, one, you want to, promote a specific act of law, and two, you get called to US Congress to testify on a wildfire. That, that, those are very different, uh, circumstances, both requiring, uh, important skills.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 7:44

De- definitely very, very different, but both actually rooted in the same, that

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 7:49

Yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 7:49

are interested in knowing or hearing from experts, learning from experts. So, As, as you started out saying, something that's close to your heart, something that, that is important to you to, to, to promote. This is why I could do this. I mean, I, could never have done that kind of job if I hadn't been passionate about fire safety and, and been told that that was what I, I had to go and argue for. this kind of, you know, view of, of lobbying that is just there to sell products, no. No interest, none whatsoever. I was in it to sell safety.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 8:22

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 8:23

I was in it to make safety high on, on the list, uh, of, of politicians', uh, priorities. And it really is about providing the knowledge. So as you say, very different if you're invited in to testify. You have a long time to explain, you have a long time to build up your argumentation and so on, and explain it Whereas if set up a meeting, you're lucky if you have 10 minutes.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 8:47

Hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 8:48

And therefore, you gotta be very, very good at telling the story in a short and concise way, using words that are understandable by non-fire experts. So, and that is really where the major difference comes in, in those two situations in my, in my point of view. So it, it's, it's the length of time you have to, to tell your story

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 9:11

I, I think, you know, uh, while listener might, may think they, they're not gonna end up in European Commission or US Congress, but, uh, uh, as far engineers, y-you meet those politicians even down the way when you're actively pursuing a building permit, when you're commissioning a building. Sometimes it's a local council, sometimes it's the mayor of the town, sometimes it's some sort of local authority at different, uh, regional municipal levels. And as you said, politicians are politicians. It's not that you get extremely more competent, technical politicians at the government compared to your local government. They are probably not even supposed to. They all carry the expertise they had before they became politicians, unless they're trained politicians and they've never done anything else in their lives. But, they may carry some, you know, experience, uh, if they had a, a life before, uh, that, but that's it. And, and that's dr- lack of a draw. If you, if you find, uh, someone who's been, you know, an architect or, led the construction works, then you're in probably great position because you can just talk to them like to an engineer. If you meet someone who's only been doing, you know, politics all their life, uh, technical knowledge, I, I, I wonder how far it will get you. Probably not that far. And, and, and that's the key of this discussion. Like, how do we do that in a way that works?

Build An Elevator Speech That Lands

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 10:37

I think we all have to start thinking about how can we communicate, uh, what we do and the importance of the work that we do to people who have absolutely no understanding of it. So whether or not it's a politician or, or somebody else who we just think should know a little bit more about this, we all somehow should think about what is my elevator speech? and, and that will start helping in, in getting into that part of how can I communicate this more clear to somebody who's not a technical audience? Because, yes, you can be lucky that you're walking into an authority having jurisdiction, as you say, somebody who's a, maybe a code official and so on. They will have a much better understanding. You're gonna have a fun, geeky conversation. It's all great. Uh, but the higher you goes up in the, political hierarchy, the less technical knowledge often. The once in a while you can be lucky to find somebody, but otherwise not. And that is where you gotta be prepared to give a story that they can relate to. and you know, you can, you can have put that together when you were talking to your mother-in-law. You could have put it together when, when you were at a barbecue with friends. really, I think we all have to think about ourselves as advocates for our field, how important it is that we talk about what we do and the importance of the safety that we bring, through our work. Talk to people about it so that they appreciate that work and that they will support it, because too often you hear people go, "Oh, that's too expensive," or, "No, all these regulations, that's awful. Let's get rid of them. I just wanna do what I wanna do." But if they start understanding, hey, this is actually what is behind this regulation, this is what is causing things to maybe look a little bit more difficult for you with what you wanna do, but there's a reason for it, and let me tell you the reason. I think we get better at, at talking about, the benefits of fire engineering.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 12:42

I like, you know, uh, sell the importance of what we do. l-l-let's play this a little bit. h-how could we sell fire safety to a non-fire safety professional at a high level? Let's, let's imagine a scenario which we are absolutely not in right now. We're... Let's imagine there's a housing policy being developed in at the European Union level, and it's not touching the fire safety at all yet, and h-how do we sell the concept of safety? Like, safety is such a hard product to sell

Selling Safety Without Sounding Alarmist

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 13:14

It, it is because it's taken for granted. Because right back to, to the, what you just said, we've done this for 20 years and nobody died. it has been baked in, and therefore people are no longer really about it,

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 13:26

Mm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 13:26

and we have to bring it back to something that we think about. So we do see the policies are coming out where it's like, well, we can save on the safety, in order for us to, be able to build more affordable housing and so on. And then I, I always go back to, well, everybody thinks about my home is my castle. What does that mean? mean that in your home you want to be safe. What does that mean to people? And then that is, well, you don't want anyone to be able to break in. You want to be able to be protected from the weather and so on. then we can go all the way to the oldest threat that we've had is fire. Do you wanna be safe from fire?

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 14:05

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 14:05

Yes, you do. Then these are the conversations that we need to have. I think we just, we really need to get into people's, uh, almost, uh, basic need for safety, and fire safety really is part of that. They've just forgotten about it because we've been so damn good at our jobs

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 14:25

Yeah, like primal need, uh, that's been with us. But it, it's kind of funny how you position it right now with, with the household safety because, uh, literally that's the most risky place you can be at, right? The,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 14:37

It is

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 14:38

the chance that you're gonna die in a fire in your household is so, so much higher than, for example, uh, having the same outcome at an airport, for example. We,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 14:46

Correct.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 14:46

we-- which again is not something, uh, It's not something everyone knows, right? And it's not something very easy to sell. What, Well, would you build on positive emotions like we need to provide safety, everyone is trying to be safe, you hope to be safe in your house, or you may rather play on the hazard side, like, uh, we're creating absence of safety, we're creating dangerous situations. And, and, uh, what, what, what do you think? Which emotion is kind of stronger in this relationship of trying to sell the safety as a concept?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 15:23

it's a, that's a good question, and I'm not 100% sure of the answer. I do feel like, though, that often we are seen as the annoying buggers because we are threatening

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 15:32

Yeah. Okay

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 15:33

and people get a little tired of listening. "Well, it's not gonna happen to me,"

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 15:37

yeah yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 15:38

Right it's that thing that people have, right? So it's difficult because then you say, "Well, here are the positives," and give the positive story. Often people rather wanna relate to that. But to give it that urgency is really where the challenge comes in. this is when, this sounds terrible because it sounds almost like a, an ambulance chaser, right? But you gotta be ready for when there is an event that happens where people suddenly realize, "Oh my God, this could happen to me." That is the moment that they listen.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 16:08

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 16:09

That is the moment that when they're open for a conversation about, "Well, are

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 16:13

Like cre- creating a relatable scenario which is likely at the same time. Okay

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 16:20

Ex- ex- exactly. So it, it, uh, that really, that really helps. So we gotta be able to, to be able to talk about these things after events has happened. And not in that, "I told you so, of course we knew this was gonna happen," but more like, "Okay, now we need to think about this. We saw these and these things failed, then this is what we need to do going forward." and honestly the same goes going back to, where we started with, with the politicians, right? They honestly listen much, much better when there's been an incident. if there hasn't been an incident, well, it doesn't really exist right now.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 16:57

Uh, yeah. I'll--

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 16:58

the crazy thing

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 16:59

I, I wrote, uh, that down right now, and I'm gonna come back to that in few minutes, but I want to pull you in for... Like, I wish we had like A/B testing for politicians, you know, like you have for websites. Like you-- two people get two different, opening texts, and the, the one with more clicks after an hour becomes the default one. I think th-this, this would be a space for like what's better, a positive message pos-positive reinforcement or scary message, what's, what's more. And I kind of agree with you when you say that people don't like being threatened. But

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 17:31

No

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 17:32

for example, about the, public response to newly formed fire hazards, like electric vehicles. in my country, it was like we're all gonna die because of them. it, it was like very, well organized in, in the way that, uh, you would hear about it everywhere. Like if there was seven fires of an electric vehicle in a year, every single of them would be a, a news headliner and everyone would be talking. And then I go to the projects and I-- and people who are in positions of power, maybe not politicians, but people in a position of power, uh, they're like, "Oh my God, but do you know what kind of temperatures will the electric vehicles create?" And like, yeah, well, technically I do know, like, but I don't think that's the answer you're, you're looking for. but y-y-you know, this, this negative r- reinforcement kind of took over the whole, uh, political debate. So, it, it feels like a very strong emotion in terms of, uh, how far it can go, but I'm, I'm not sure if we are able to, to use the same emotion to create something good

Media Sensation And Electric Vehicle Fires

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 18:40

in here.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 18:40

I think, I think what, what really is behind what you're talking about there is, is the role of media.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 18:46

Okay

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 18:47

and so it's not just a fear, it's sensation.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 18:50

sensation, okay?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 18:51

yes, and that's like, oh my God, these fires are so different and things are d- it's something new, it's something extreme. so media has really pushed it up, to something. And, you know, it makes you wonder why did they choose to do that? And I'm not gonna speculate at all on that, but you know, th- there could also be reasons for that. so, so they then, through the media co- if they have had the same media coverage of every time we had a regular vehicle fire,

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 19:23

Hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 19:24

then people would be scared of any vehicles you know, bursting into flames.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 19:29

Or got bored with them

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 19:31

yeah, or get bored with them. Exactly. But the thing is they only covered the electric vehicle fires, and therefore suddenly it looked like there was so many of them, and that scares people, and it scares people because it's new, and because we can see that we don't really have yet the response to how to do it. is there anything politicians pick up on as well is, well, this is in the media, this is something people care about. Now I care about it because my constituents care about it. So that is another way of, of, of creating an, an interest in a topic. And nobody cares about that one person died over here because they smoked in their bed. cares about that somebody died over there because something f- the electrical failure in their home. That is not a sensational news story, and therefore it doesn't get the same kind of, of attention compared to an electric vehicle. It's sad but true

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 20:28

I'm, I'm thinking about how we can actually, turn this, uh, sensationalism into something useful. I mean,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 20:36

Mm-hmm.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 20:36

wh-when I interviewed Steve Kerber, he said that in their communication with firefighters, they had to emphasize the change of the fire scene because no one likes to be told they're wrong. "Ah, you know what? You're completely wrong about fires. They're completely different than you thought." And no one likes to be like, uh, shown to not be indicated. Like, "You have never heard about fires, and y-you know nothing about them." But to, to say that, "Okay, you know, uh, yeah, you're correct in your assessment, but the newest findings show us that this considerably changes the playing field, and now we should also consider this, this, and this, and here comes some technologies," creates a potentially a space which you can maybe, accommodate with some of the good fire safety concepts. Like if you wanted to introduce sprinklers, for example, as a default solution for every kind of, office, let's say, that's not a bad idea overall because they're proven to be successful, right? But if you say, "You know what? Ah, yeah, we could introduce sprinklers now everywhere," you're gonna face, "Oh yeah, but for 100 years we didn't have them everywhere and we're fine." But if you say, "Okay, you know what? The, the situation has changed so tremendously with the amount of plastics, completely sealed buildings, insulation, and, now electric, battery hazards. Overall, this creates a new landscape, so we perhaps should readjust our thinking, and this could be a response." I think that message sounds more acceptable, though I don't know because I never gave it to a politician. I, I have no idea how would politician respond to that.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 22:15

I, I agree with your, your premise there. I think you're, you're absolutely right. That is a much more acceptable way of doing it, and I think that we as, uh, fire safety engineers have to think about how can we use this debate that's going on right now around electric vehicles, batteries, and so on to say, "Well, this is a time for us to sh- exactly say, think about the changed landscape, uh, of, of fire." is the, the complicated thing to try and explain, and I've, I've do- I've tried it, uh, you know, saying, "Yes, we have a really good, uh, way of designing for safety, and we have built that over decades, and we've built it based on experience with existing products, existing technologies, and so on, and we have been successful. Look at the numbers. it speaks for themselves. But everything that we base that design on is changing.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 23:10

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 23:10

It might not change for the worse. Some might have changed for the better, some changed for the worse, but it has changed, and this is why we need to have these conversations again, so that we can make sure that the safety level is as we expect it." You cannot come in with new threats m- into framework that has been developed based on old technology.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 23:33

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 23:33

It will not give you what you want. So yes, we need to be part of this conversation now as people are nervous about it. We understand that you're nervous. We are working on the solutions. Here are some that we already believe will help. again, we need to, follow where people are concerned, and right now there is a concern about the changing landscape, and we need to be part of that discussion

Avoid Being Used In Political Fights

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 24:00

Yeah, absolutely. when we are getting into this, another risk when dealing with, uh, politics and politicians as I see is that, uh, that's my feeling about politics in Poland, but everything, uh, done by politicians is for the sake of politics, kind of. I'm not saying every politician in the world is, and I am very glad for you if yours are different, but mine are like that. Everything exists for the sake of politics. And I'm also kind of worried about, becoming a part of, a discussion where my cause, either an incident that happened or a kind of regulation that we would like to impose becomes a force. "Oh, the other guys, they've done it completely wrong. Look, here's a guy who's gonna tell you everything about how they destroyed, uh, us through fire, you know, and that's all their fault. Now we have get rid of them and you can implement whatever he's saying I, I'm, I'm really worried about becoming a part of such a debate

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 24:57

and for, for a good reason. Uh, because of course there is a risk that you, you as a technical expert that has been called in by, by a politician then are taken hostage.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 25:06

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 25:07

but you just have to make sure that what you say within what you really are comfortable saying. That you know that everything you say, even if you have simplified it and so on in order to expl- explain it to people who are not experts, but you know all of this is grounded in sound knowledge. You're on safe ground. How they choose to interpret it and then, use it, uh, going forward, unfortunately you're not in control of.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 25:35

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 25:36

But, and that, is something that, that can be a little bit difficult for people to, to understand that, yeah, that is a risk that then they will go, "But this expert that we brought in said such and such", and then they're misrepresenting what you're saying. You cannot control that. you just have to make sure that your message is on target, and you do not start getting pulled into, "Oh, what about these over here? They've, they've been all wrong. What do you think about that?" and so on. Stick with your own. It is very easy to get hijacked

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 26:12

Uh, th-th-there was such a debate in Poland, between, uh, between stone fluff and popcorn plastic.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 26:19

Yes, I can imagine. I've, I've, heard about those discussions

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 26:22

but like you would not-- like taking a technical stance in whichever direction directly ties you to specific political party right now.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 26:33

Oof

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 26:33

Uh, and, your opinion o-on combustibility or, thermal properties of insulation is now a statement of patriotism, Brigitte. This i- this, this is how far it went in here, and it's u-un-unbelievable, and I think at, at such point, I did everything in my power to not be a part of that, and I'm quite su-successful avoiding that. But, I think it also reached a point where any technical, comment is, is useful. Like it, it, it's n- because it's not about technical properties anymore, it's about, direct political agendas of, of different, peoples. So, so I, I think it's also a-- there's-- while communicating, I think also an important thing is to know when to shut up like really and, and perhaps don't speak anything.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 27:23

I, I, I agree. And, and there, there's no doubt that, different, sides in these kind of discussions would really want for you to come out and give a clear statement, you know, pro this, against that, over

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 27:38

yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 27:38

Yeah. So they, they, you know, they really want that. And this is where y- yeah, you gotta be so careful because that can lead you to some challenges going forward. I, I still remember in my previous job talking to, to someone who was in, in your shoes here, as you're talking about, and that person just looked at me and they said, Birgitte, I set these rules. It's, it's your challenge to sell products. That's not my job. That's your job. We are just setting rules." And I think that is, is important to, be clear in the science, be clear in the technical, and picking sides.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 28:21

Mm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 28:22

the only side that you should pick is the side of safety

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 28:26

Well, es-especially that you will always or usually, face, uh, counter opinions perhaps from another scientist who just is currently representing or being, you know, working for the other side of the, of the political spectrum, who may also try to, you know, present a case for, for safety as they understand it. And, and then while you may agree at nine- on 90% of the stuff as fundamentals, it's not the things that you agree on are gonna be a part of the political discussion. It's that a few percent and at which there's like, some details, opinions, different facts. You can cherry-pick so much, uh, in, in, in the world of fire safety, right? And I, I think it's also, when you prep yourself into the such a discussion, I think it's important to understand what's there that could be cherry-picked against you in a way, like, or against the message that you're trying to represent

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 29:20

Very, very true. Uh, I mean, the soundbite, right? Taken just, just a little bit and out of context, and then suddenly it can sound like you, you said something completely different. can't, you can't protect yourself completely from that. Then, then we would just have to hide somewhere and, and never be part of the discussion. it's a risk, that you unfortunately are running when you enter into the public discussion. But I also do believe that we need to be part of the public discussion despite these risks, despite that what will try to hijack us. we need to be part of it because otherwise it'll only gonna be the one who shouts the most, who, who will be listened to, and not those who actually knows the most. so we have to make sure that we keep coming back with, well, these are the facts. These are the facts, and, and this is what is important, uh, even though they are trying to, shout louder than us

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 30:14

Okay.

Map Stakeholders And Craft Your Story

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 30:15

Uh, let, let's now change the, the, the landscape. Now you're a, a researcher who wants to build a, a support for something good. You're, uh, you're not in the middle of a political battle between two options. You're actually... You would like to, to actually attract both of them to a case of, of safety. Uh, you have an idea, you feel strong about the idea, you, you feel strong about the need. How do you build your steps to start talking to people who will be the, the, the decisive ones, you know, to, to get to where the decisions are made, not just, speak on, some trade fairs, uh, far away from, from the headquarters?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 30:53

So that, I mean, the first thing is to map out who is it that I need to talk to? Who is it actually that sits with the power that, that I need to get to? so- Right and that, and it might not always be easy to get to those people. Uh, if, if you are a, a researcher, you're want- and you're actually most likely going to see can I get a funding for this? Can I get somebody interested in this? you have to figure out who is it actually that I'm targeting, then figure out, well, how do I approach these people? How can I connect with them? and depending on who it is, it, it, it can be very different steps to take. But then you have to, make your story, because

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 31:29

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 31:29

people connect with stories. People don't connect with facts. People connect with stories. So you have to out, well, what is it with what I wanna do in my research that will connect with this person and therefore make them want to support me? So it, really is relating it to people, relating it to something that is understandable for others, and sometimes that can be really difficult. If you're working on fundamental research, which is needed for what we do, trying to make that connection to that I can tell a story to somebody who knows nothing about fire, is a steep mountain to climb.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 32:09

Hmm?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 32:10

But that is where you look for help. don't think you have to do it all on your own. No matter how smart you are, you don't have, you know, knowledge about everything and talent in everything. So find somebody who has done this kind of work before. Work with them. Learn that communication. Learn how to talk to, uh, these kind of people that you're trying to connect with so that you can get that hook so they're interested. And where it is they are, uh, to, to be found is, is sometimes another challenge. I mean, there's, there's places I've been trying to break into, through my career and still haven't. I'm still hoping, but, uh, we, we will see. But, I mean, one of, one of my big dreams, and I think we've talked about it previously as well, is to get some of those really big funders, really those people that are giving out big money, to be interested in fire safety, and I haven't broken through there yet, so still working

Coalitions Allies And Compromises

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 33:09

on that one.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 33:09

H-how, how do you feel the chances of a single individual versus, becoming a part of organization and just, you know, using organization to leverage this, uh, this voice? And here I'm talking like, uh, all SFPs and, and IFSSs and other, you know, you mentioned FARC Europe, all, all, all types of organizations like that

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 33:32

You are much more likely to have success through an organization. as a single person with one topic, it, it will be really tough breaking through.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 33:41

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 33:42

are much more likely to have success if you can say, "Well, this is what this area of industry, whether if you're a fire protection engineer, we're all seeing this problem. This is why we need to work on this." Or, you know, all of these, uh, manufacturers over here, they see that there's this challenge, we should work on this, right? get, get allies. Also get allies in areas where you might not have thought about it. Uh, some of, some of the campaigns I've seen from other organizations that, that I was not working with, but others were, you know, they, they brought in, for instance, the, um, groups of, people who had had burn injuries to talk about their experiences to really put a, a, a face on what happens and very powerful, uh, campaign that they did on that. Uh, figure out who would potentially have an interest that could then work with you and help you create a bigger message. It, it's, uh, always I say that the bigger the choir, the, the stronger the song. So the more people you can get, to work with you and, and promote it, the better chance of success.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 34:50

Though also that leads to perhaps diluting the message sometimes or maybe, you know, softening the message to align with more voices. And also, and also there's a risk, uh, you may eventually end up supporting something you did not sign up for. I'm not saying this is like how the organizations work, but that's also a challenge that you have to be, worried about. And unfortunately, the closer to politics you get, the m- more of that you see

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 35:18

Very, very true. Of course, the broader the coalition, the bigger the compromises. that is how it goes. And that is where you also then have to figure out, well, with the message that you wanna deliver and that you believe is really important in o- order for us to get that better s- safety, how much do I wanna compromise? And is this then the path I wanna go? And sometimes the answer is no, and you're gonna realize, okay, this coalition does not work for this.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 35:47

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 35:48

because it's become so broad and so watered down the message just becomes blah.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 35:54

sometimes the compromise is also stepping out of the table and just not taking part in it anymore. If, that's better than, uh, supporting a case that, uh, you stopped believing it or believe that it, it went into, into wrong way. And assuming we all try, you know, to communicate the best we can and, and do it for, for the benefit of good, this is also some-something... You have to have an im- a strong moral compass kind of like to, to be able to s-step down, communicate why, uh, uh, explain why, and, and, and just leave, I guess.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 36:27

definitely. and this is, this is why we're, we're talking about us as, as fire safety engineers and fire safety scientists and so on doing these kind of jobs. We have a strong compass. We know what we're doing.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 36:39

Yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 36:40

to somebody who has dedicated their career to, to truly lobby on whatever, they don't care if, they're lobbying for, you know, candles one day, sprinklers the other, and, and, food dye the third day. it's a job, for them. Where for us, it's much different. We come into it with a deep knowledge, with a passion for what we do, and is where as you get deeper and deeper into this, you gotta constantly check your own moral compass in that. Am I

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 37:12

Hmm

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 37:13

still okay with what I'm doing? Am I still okay with the messages that I'm now bringing forward? Because now I've created this group around me, am I still okay with what we're saying? And if not, step away

Ethical Communication After Tragedy

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 37:25

previously you said, uh, that politicians open up much more when there has been a tragedy, and I, I believe this is strongly true. Uh, though I now wonder what is an ethical way to relate to a tra- tragedy, especially when it's fresh, you know? there was a good example, uh, early this year, like the New Year's when there was this tragic fire in Switzerland and everyone jumped in, and there has been like hundreds of, opinions online calling for different things, uh, some of them good, some of them, questionable. And then, uh, SFP Switzerland issued this interesting letter, I'm not sure if you've seen it, but on, on the ethical communication as a fire safety engineer. Uh, and, and I, I really enjoyed that piece. Uh, I'm actually talking to Gianlu- Gianluca, the, the Sanctis to, to have a podcast episode on that item specific. But in broader sense, how, how does one ethically use, a fire that has happened and, and has most likely been a tragedy to, to someone or a large group of people in this communication with politicians? Because one, it attracts and gives you this whatever short attention span you're gonna get. But two, I, I find it like quite stressful in, in terms of how to use it well.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 38:43

it's a fine balance. It, it truly, truly is. I think it, um, back to the moral compass, it's also about why are you doing this now? Are you doing it to promote yourself, or are you doing it because you really want to promote that there should be more safety in nightclubs?

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 39:02

Hmm

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 39:02

And it's been very interesting to see the people that have been out there and been very vocal, uh, after the fire there in, uh, New Year's Eve. And some very clearly are so concerned about this topic and really want to raise the awareness, while others it's more like, "Oh, great way for me to get some limelight here and, and because there's, there's a big disaster that's just happened." So Don't make it, don't make it about yourself.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 39:29

Mm-hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 39:30

it about what is it that you want to change due to this. Be very respectful of the victims, and do not use them, know, in, in, in this. Make sure that you honor them. always say that we, when we communicate about this after this, we do it and should do it so that they don't die in vain. Their death should have a meaning in that sense that changes will come so others won't experience the same. And that is what you need to keep front and center to yourself in this, because otherwise it starts becoming about, "Oh, I'm getting all this attention because this happened." d- does that make sense?

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 40:13

No, no, it does, it does. I mean, uh, especially this need to, uh, a lot of people would be speaking for the purpose of speaking. Like, okay, we're moving away from the discussion with politicians, but in general, you know, uh, uh, building PR around a case or around a person and then speaking for the sake of taking a, taking a stance is, is not necessarily the most productive way to do. And if you, a month be- before you've been a specialist on bamboo flammability, and three months before you've been specialist in, uh, wildfires, and, and by the way, you know a lot on earthquakes as well, as I probably like you're too experty for me. Um, but well, which perhaps is fair. There are maybe people in the world who, who could take a reasonable stance on all of those cases, but, uh, not every self-made expert on LinkedIn is exactly that. in terms of politicians, again, that's, that's also, you know, a challenge because, when trying to get with the message after a tragedy like that, you will be also among a larger crowd of people trying to hijack that message towards their whatever goal they have with potentially much stronger and more emotional sensationalist, uh, you know, wording on that topic. Uh, which makes it kind of, like it's kind of hard to beat through a shouting crowd with genuine science and modest opinions.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 41:47

It very, very difficult. Yes, it is. and again, this is why you, you got then to be good at the story order to get attention, because there will be so many people shouting, and unfortunately politicians and, and other people, uh, often in, in power will not be able to recognize who is actually the expert or not. we in the fire science community and fire engineering community, we know very well when some of our peers speak who are the real experts in these areas and so on, but a politician will never know that. And you're up against that. Why should they say, then take you serious when this person over here is shouting really loud about another message than you are? I'm not saying it's easy, but I also don't want people to be scared from taking, you know, taking a role in this, uh, when, when these situations happens. Because again, we need for people with good knowledge to be part of these discussions so that we don't just leave the field to those who shout the loudest.

Build Trust Before The Next Crisis

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 42:55

M- my, my father used to tell, "Don't argue with a shouting idiot because for a bystander it's difficult to tell the difference." And, uh, there's, uh, there's something in it. I think the...

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 43:07

Yes

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 43:08

I, I think in cases like this, taking a stance, after a, after a tragedy and being able to actually build something o- on the circumstances, uh, or maybe prevent something further down the line, a lot of work has to be done much more beforehand, building your own authority up to that point. You're not building your authority through commenting on the current issue. You are the authority commenting on the current issue, and that o- opens a whole different way of being able to communicate. I'm, I've been building my authority through this podcast for, for years and, and I, I feel, uh, that, uh, this voice gets somewhere and I'm also trying to be very modest on, on commenting the, the recent stuff that, that unfortunately happens all the, all the freaking time, which scares the hell out of me. But, I, I, I would urge you all not to start a podcast. I mean, it started with... It's fun. It's, it's, It's, it's great, uh, joyful, uh, way of living. but y- you have to dig the well before you're thirsty if you want to, if you want to be successful in those communications, building up your own credentials along the way is kind of prerequisite here

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 44:20

Correct. And, and, and be a, a, a trustworthy person who, who provides, good solid information and knowledge. that, it takes time to build. Yes, it does. And it, it, and there's many ways to do it. And you see some people are really good at it also on, I mean, you're- on LinkedIn. You're brilliant at it here and on, on the podcast.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 44:43

Thank you

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 44:44

we have a lot of people on LinkedIn that's also really good at that. there's other places as well, conferences and so on. And this is where, you know, that brings me always back to, to a pet peeve of mine around that we as fire people tend to just go to fire conferences and talk to each other

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 45:02

Hmm.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 45:02

which is great, but that can make you into somebody in the fire field. But if you want to be part of those discussions, you know, after incidents happen or, or, or just those bigger discussions of what are we gonna do now that we make green buildings and all that and so on, have to then start building up your reputation with these groups as well. And that means getting out of your comfort shell. your comfort zone. Get out of that. get out and talk to those people and start building your reputation with them as well. and that's also why I say with, with politicians, while if you only go to them right after something happens, okay, then why should they listen to you? But if over time you've seen, okay, they're dealing with these issues, "Hey, I have this information for you. think you might find this of interest." You start building a relationship, and maybe not directly with the politician, but with their, uh, staff. Um, then suddenly you become the expert they call the day they have a problem

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 45:58

I, I, I think like you can start from little things, even some sort of a scientific blog, uh, pop pop science material that you publish somewhere. I mean, even LinkedIn with the articles in, on LinkedIn, that, that's decent way to start up and publish something and, and, and start building this, relationship with the society around you. So eventually you become that, go-to person where when, when something happens and when you're invited and you don't have to fight for invitation, that's a completely different situation. And, uh, yeah, I also like the, the, the conferences. construction people conferences, uh, also firefighters, interaction with firefighters is something very-- that can get you very far because in those, kind of circumstances, you are kind of fighting for the same thing, I hope, with probably different views on, on the subject

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 46:52

Correct. And again, back to that m- a lot of them think, "Well, that was already solved. Why,

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 46:57

Yeah.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 46:57

to talk about fire again? We, we've solved that." so it was like, "No, we haven't, and here's why."

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 47:04

Yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 47:04

it is, in order to, to long-term build that, big choir to, to help you sing, you need to go out and talk to these groups as well and get them to understand, well, these are the changes. This is why we need to talk about this. And when you do, they're, they're literally like, "Oh, I didn't know that." And they are curious. So we can all help by, by stoking that curiosity of other groups, so they can help us get the message through.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 47:33

I second the, the building curiosity. I, I said that with an interview with Steve that once you get the curiosity sparking, you've already won, uh, a, a lot because you're almost there. Uh, though I'm like, well, for firefighter, I think we have the common interest, which is the fire as an, uh, inanimate object, but, but it's like something that, we like to some extent, I guess. I find it quite interesting. I don't think that's a shared, experience with a, with a politician. I would be very surprised if that was a shared. And, and, you know, uh, when we don't, when, when we don't have this shared, uh, kind, kind of interest sparking, this, um, curiosity, this genuine cu-curiosity, may-maybe very difficult. It's probably, uh, it comes with a lot of training and a lot of non-professional interactions, like talking to- about fire to non-fire professionals must build you this skill set necessary there.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 48:28

it does. And again, if honestly, most people have at some point through their life touched upon something related to fire.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 48:37

Yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 48:38

Um, whether they themselves have ha- been, uh, uh, exposed to, to fire or they have lived close to, or there this big fire that happened, or family members, friends, et cetera. everybody has actually some kind of a relationship to fire. And that is where- that is one of those things you need to dig into and make the connection there. And this is also why they often will have a little bit of a curiosity to start with, because fire is that thing that we, we, we have. So Put anyone in front of a campfire and, and they're mesmerized, they're fascinated. And that is sort of like you have to create that campfire to draw them in, to make them connect with why fire is still an issue that we need to tackle to make a safe build environment. that's the stories that you need to build up to connect, try and connect into whatever it is they have that is their connection.

Explaining Risk To Emotional Audiences

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 49:42

one last, one last final question I, I have for you. I, I struggle with, communicating abstract concepts like risk. Like I, I would, I would love to use risk as the baseline, for my analysis. I'm dealing with tunnels, which you know, and in tunnels risk is my tool. Uh, and risk is a great tool, but you have to embrace it fully, which means you embrace the fact there may be very low probability, high consequence events that you just omit because of the risk that, it results in. And, I often find myself in a position where I can give a justification to a design choice because the risk is, uh, negligible. Yet someone, "Oh yeah, but you cannot exclude that it's gonna happen." I'm like, "Yes, that's the point of me using risk." Yeah, like to be able to not exclude that and yet say it's negligible. But you know, if you end up in a situation when, this is brought up, it kills the whole concept of risk-based decision-making. There's no risk-based decision-making if we are ignoring the fact there could be negligible, events. and, and I really, really struggle with that. And, uh, this especially comes from politicians and especially comes from authorities, and I am really stuck in, in how to handle them

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 51:02

That's, that's because their response is emotional and yours is intellectual. it,

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 51:08

Oh, technical.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 51:09

emo- Yeah. No, but I mean, you have a technical intellectual explanation and, and you are in every way factually correct, but they have an emotional response that, "Oh, but this could happen, and that could be really, really bad." in order to get over that hurdle, you need to figure out, well, what is that trigger and how can I then connect with that? And that's, that's, uh, it's a real challenge, and I can't tell you how to do it because I haven't really figured it out either. But is the part where you go, that's the only way you can connect with them is if you recognize their emotional challenge on this, and then try to bring them in to the factual world.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 51:54

I really struggle with that. Like, it, it's, it's s-such a difficult thing that almost is a deal breaker on many, projects. The way I'm handling that, I'm throwing meteorites and dinosaurs whenever I can in the discussion.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 52:07

Yeah.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 52:07

my favorite question, like, uh, when we go to s- like I break the discussion on smoke control and, um, oh, by the way, so, so you mean I have to design a meteorite protection? What do you mean meteorite protection? I mean, because like this is the same probability of, of this fire happening in this kind of circumstance, you know? A bus full of kids hitting an oil tanker directly at the evacuation exit, in a traffic jam, you know?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 52:30

Yeah.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 52:30

So,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 52:31

Yeah

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 52:31

that we reach level of probabilities. Last time it happened, it happened at the dinosaurs. I wonder how they managed, but I don't know. They have no written records how, how they managed their road tunnels. But

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 52:41

They all died.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 52:42

they all died.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 52:43

That's

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 52:43

Oh, that's horrible. That's horrible. Now I lost my case. You cannot say that.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 52:50

Exactly. So be careful. But I think actually what, what you're doing there is really good because you're bringing it to something people can understand. The probability of this is the same as a meteorite landing here in the next two minutes or whatever, right? So is it that, that gives that balance of what it is we're talking about. But again, it comes to that, yeah, but that, that I can, that I don't, cannot imagine, but I can imagine a school full, f- you know, a bus, bus full of school children

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 53:15

Yeah.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 53:15

situation, right?

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 53:16

that, that's the- that was a quote. That was literally a quote, uh, of what I've been dealing with, like. And, risk is also a concept that, uh, is not very natural to people. Like, everyone has their own idea what risk is, but they usually kind of, confuse risk with hazard in a way

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 53:33

the problem is that the word risk has been hijacked to a large extent and being used for so many different things that the actual way that we are using the word is not understood by, by many people. but I... This is where, you know, one of those areas where it's like it would be so interesting to get somebody with a psychology major in to discuss this with. How do we get people to understand this?

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 54:00

Yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 54:00

What is it that, uh, is needed in order for us to break through between my factual saying that this is really at the same level of a meteorite hitting, but their emotional response is still so strong to this bus full of schoolchildren that they can't get over it?

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 54:19

A-a-and I can't really understand why in some fields that's fine. Like in earthquake engineering, I think there's a lot of, uh, probabilistic performance-based methods are, are very well established. Chemical engineering, process engineering has a lot of, you know, risk-based methods, and they have them. even if I look at fire safety, I mean, I may be, uh, disappointed about buses with children hitting oil tankers in the tunnel, but at least I'm able to justify a decision based on risk. If I design a, a kindergarten, I'm definitely n- not supposed to use the word risk like using a bomb in an airplane. I'm not supposed to, base my decisions on risk because there's like just the technical, you know, requirements of the code and the standards that you're supposed to follow. So I'm, I'm already, uh, lucky in tunnels

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 55:11

That is, that is, that is really interesting. Yeah. I think again, it goes back to what we've come back to many times. People think fire's been solved, so why do we need to talk risk in those situations where there is a code, there's a regulation, we just follow that, so we don't need to talk about risk. No, no, no, now you're, now you're muddying the waters. and it- sometimes we, we, we are victim of our own success over the years, because it, it's worked so well. And now we are trying to, get into, like, we really would like to have a conversation about risk because the world has changed a lot around us, and we need to take these things into account, and the old ways of doing things don't do that. So we need to get that kind of, of discussion going. So you might need to invite somebody very different into your podcast to talk about how we can change that, uh, conversation

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 56:06

I mean, it's, it's definitely a challenge worth a very strong research grant. I think that would be an ERC grant for a kind of social science person. If, if someone like that is listening, please God, do it. Like, do it. Please, we need you.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 56:22

Exactly, yes

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 56:24

Yeah, it is something that, that we're kind of lacking i-in, in getting through with the message, because I think the message, we already have a good set of messages and even messages that I, I guess most of the, you know, community could agree on. but to get them through, especially in this difficult audience, which may not even be interested in being the audience is challenging. Well,

Final Takeaways And Closing

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 56:50

Brigitte, can you believe one hour has passed?

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 56:55

I cannot, but you know, you and I, we can sit and talk here for, for a couple of hours without a problem, but we probably would bore the listeners, so we better

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 57:02

Yeah, I'm, I'm getting into more and more like traumatic and negative, uh, feelings in here, so I'll-- I guess I'll just stop here and I'll just let you enjoy your, uh, long flight to your well-deserved, uh, summer holidays. And, uh, and I would ri- like to really thank you to, to speak on this very, very difficult matter. And I wonder, uh, I, I hope that we, we have opened someone's mind to, to think about the process. And once you start thinking about it and doing it, not by accident, by-- but by, you know, means that, that you want to do it, storytelling, uh, targeting audience, understanding who you're speaking, defending your position as the technical source of knowledge, not getting involved in political rumble. All of those are, are really, really great, uh, you know, advice to anyone who's gonna be involved in, in talking to politicians, I guess.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 57:54

I hope, I hope someone will find it w- it useful and, and, be successful.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 57:59

I found it use, I found it useful. Plus one to you. You already succeeded.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:04

Yay. That's good. Good. One, one, one down.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:06

But I really, really don't want to talk to politicians.

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:09

I, you know what? I, I actually, as I said, I used to as when my, when my old boss there was like, "Yeah, you go and do that." And I was like, "Oh, my dead decomposing body." Then two years later he was like, "Okay, so maybe, you know, a niche for you in, in, in CEN TC 127 standardization." like, "Oh, my dead decomposing body."

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:27

Oh, God. Wow. Yeah

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:28

he can get me to go back in that sense. So, um,

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:31

Well,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:32

it

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:32

I gue- I guess there is something to

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:35

Yes, there is. There is. But now I'm back in the technical and I love that too.

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:39

I, uh,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:40

just

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:40

li-,

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:40

full circle

wojciech_1_07-02-2026_170552 58:41

I'm just so technical. Anyway, thank you, Brigitte. Enjoy your summer and, and, uh, see you around

birgitte_1_07-02-2026_110552 58:47

See you around. Thanks Wojtek. Bye

Wojciech 58:49

And that's it. I've actually found a lot of useful things in this episode, so I hope you did as well. in her seminar talk, Birgitte, I think, has spoken a little bit more about storytelling and the importance of that and how to practice storytelling with your relatives, with your grandma, I believe. Uh, maybe that was her or, or, or Guillermo, but such an example was given in the seminar that if you can talk about fire in simple terms to your relatives, that gets you pretty close to where you have to be to talk, uh, about fire and advanced concepts to non-fire professionals, which in this case includes, politicians. some people are trying to get there and lobby for things, and I think that's very important that we've-- we enthusiasts of fire safety, uh, we lobby for safety. There's no one else who's gonna lobby for safety beyond us. Safety is expensive. Safety is troublesome. People don't like to spend on it, and yet it's necessary, and only us, we know, what are the true consequences of choices that people do. And if we see something being wrong, it's our obligation to step up and get that knowledge in front of people in positions of power, ha, whether they do like it or not. If you are called to testify in front of politicians, that's another thing. If you are invited by politicians to kind of support their agenda as an expert, that's also a different thing. And all those same circumstances lead to different preparation for that conversation. But one thing remains the same: you have to be sound, you have to be ethical, you have to be based on science, you have to be based on fundamental science. That's, that's, that's really, really important. You have to be unbiased. You should not take sides, and you should avoid the politics in the politics, which probably is a minefield. But, uh, yeah, that's, that's gonna get you the furthest. And as Birgitte said, we never get control on how the message gets used beyond what we've said. Therefore, you have to choose your words very, very carefully and see what can be cherry-picked out of that and how could it be misused. The more you prepare yourself for the situation, the better is going to be the outcome. Uh, that will be it for today's episode. I'm very thankful to Birgitte for having this conversation with me, and, uh, next week we will come back and bring some more classical fire science. Or maybe, uh, let's think about it. It's gonna be a little bit sustainability. Not sure that counts as classical fire science. Well, it's definitely fire science and definitely relevant to our everyday's job, so I'm very sure you will enjoy it. Thank you for being here with me today. See you here next week. Cheers. Bye.